Ethnical differences

[Rob Maule]

Jos, what did you mean when you said you didn't want to explicitly implement ethnicity, and that it was a step in the wrong direction?

[Pirog]

Jos>

Although I like the idea about genetics I don't think it will be an effective way to form ethnicity...it would probably take at least 10-20 generations to even see any larger differences in their appearance...probably more.

And that still leaves the problem with the starting "looks"
It is not like black people would become white after a couple of generations in a nordic country...so seeing it as a mere effect of weather seems rather strange.

[Rob Maule]

Also, for integration of ethnicity, that needs the same type of people to keep having children. Without mating family members, I don't see this as feasible in Cantr societies.

And the introduction of foreigners to locations (and mating) would degrade any common resemblences. Eventually, everyone would look the same again. If you were to set the number of generations to be lower, you'd end up with everyone being unique. And because the way Cantr is, I cannot see any chance of a desirable middle.

[The Hunter]

Jos>

Although I like the idea about genetics I don't think it will be an effective way to form ethnicity...it would probably take at least 10-20 generations to even see any larger differences in their appearance...probably more.

And that still leaves the problem with the starting "looks"
It is not like black people would become white after a couple of generations in a nordic country...so seeing it as a mere effect of weather seems rather strange.

Cantr does not follow RL rules. Also the pace of evolving "which i think is what Jos means" can be sped up. Also, once even the slightest differences between ppls appearence are visible, there will be interbreeding and thus mixing of genes. Also, I think Jos didn't mean ppl starting with simular features, just the weather having additional influence on it. It'll be like one of those "life sims", in the long run one mix of genes will be the strongest, only in Cantr it will also be determined by the players/characters due to travelling.

[Pirog]

The argument about Cantr not follow RL rules is getting a bit tired
Realism is still important...

The genes thing is a good idea in itself, but the idea was about being able to pinpoint where someone comes from by his looks and I don't think that will ever happen just by evolution...

[rklenseth]

Ethnicity should be worked out as far as their physical description. That is why I would like to see genes and reproduction added. And once dynamic naming for towns and other stuff occurr it will be hard to put that this person is a Naronian if they are no longer known as such. Most people today know the Vikings Vikings but back in the day they were called Norsemen or Northmen and other groups of people had different names for them like the Irish called them Osmens. So all of that should be possible as well. So we should leave the naming of the ethnicities up to the cultures. But someone who is foreign to a land should be seen from the way they look. And would a Quillanionian know a Naronian if he has never met someone from Naron.

But this kind of thing will have to wait for 2.0 and would involve reproduction and genes. Eventually we can determine dominant and recessive genes and allow the possibility of mixed people and so on.

[sammigurl61190]

But you also have to remember that life in Cantr is a lot faster--20 generations wouldn't be that long.

[Genevieve]

Why not, instead of by specific spawning location, go by island-or if the island is big, by part of the island. So there are regions or something. After all, if you are Naronian, you'll look a lot like the people in Lad because you are close to them-and Brinks Forest as well, I think. It's been a while, so I don't remember where everything is in that area. But anywho, just a thought.

[David]

"Lad reminds me of nazi germany"

I always pictured Lad as more like Czarist Russia than Nazi Germany.

I don't see any Panzers rolling around Lad j/k, however I do see an emperor and a lot names with "ov" on the end. Plus, a kind of Czarist praetorian guard skulking about. There was a specific name for Russia's praetorian guard in the middle ages to before Communism, but I can't remember it. They rode around on horses in all black, and acted as domestic spies, and destroyed resistence movements from within, as well as just traditional open killing. They were a kind of medieval secret police.

Another thing is there was a lot more racism in Nazi Germany, Lad is more like Russia in that it did absorb large amounts of various ethnic groups, but feared 'outsiders' that did not assimilate. Racism came in waves over Russia (pogroms et cetra). Whereas I think Germany was more consistently racist over time until after WW2.

Oh, and a note on Russian ehnicity. It is a mix of Scandinavian, Asiatic (mongols, Tartars, others in the Eastern regions) , Slavic, and Central European. It was a melting pot long before America (hundreds of years before America even existed)

[rklenseth]

I see the Alexian Empire as more a mix between Czarist Russia and Imperial Rome. It has elements from both. Alexi Romanov was the founder and first emperor of the Alexian Empire (known at the time as the Empire of Ladvicitavoi). Romanov was the family that ruled Russia up until Lenin and his boys overthrew them to form a Communist state.

I don't think the Alexian Empire is anything like a fascist state. It is more of an Imperial state like Rome with sort of a hierarchy like Russia. Racism is an exact compotent of fascism. German fascists may have been trying to make the perfect race but Italian fascists were trying to bring back the 'glory of the Roman Empire'. I think it is almost ironic that Hitler's form of fascism and Mussolini's form of fascism were totally the opposite of each other. Hitler wanted to reunite the German people under 'one empire'. His definition of who was German was very broad and included most Europeans. He also thought of different groups that would be a blight against his German Empire and excluded them as these people. Mussolini simply wanted to bring back Italy as a world power so to speak and possibly recreate the Roman Empire. We all know that Rome was sacked by Germanic barbarians and it is often that these same Germanic barbarians are blamed for partly for the fall of Rome. There were many reasons why Rome fell apart though so sole blame cannot be placed on those German or Northern European ancestors such as the Celts or Norsemen. If you see Hitler's ideas contradicted Mussolini's ideas and eventually they would have gone to war against each other. At first the two hated each other but then Mussolini saw Hitler's rise to power and decided to ride his coat tails. It is good though that it didn't come down to only being Hitler and Mussolini or I may not be in existence right now. Hitler also didn't liked 'mixed races' and I'm Norweign and Irish which makes me an American mutt in his eyes. And the thing is that I don't have any German ancestery to save my ass.

Anyways, back to discussion. I would really like to see some sort of gene thing to be set up with reproduction that would allow for ethnicity and maybe even later mixed ethnicities with dominant and recessive genes. That would allow so much depth not only into the mechanics of the game but into the storyline as well. Being able to tell whether someone is foreign, your race, or even mixed races would be really cool and could lead to some very exciting situations and roleplaying. Alas, I don't think the gene thing will be possible until 2.0. Could someone from programming say whether or not the gene idea could work with the current version?

[David]

I like that idea, RKL.

In response to your comments on Rome: I agree, I had a History Instructor who enumerated at least nine reasons why Rome fell, most seemed plausible. (The Northerners were among those nine) The Germanic tribes were utilized by the Roman Empire in their Army, some Germans even rose through the ranks of the official legions. One of the more interesting reasons is that they have found that the Romans used something that had Lead in it to line the pipes of their water system, which contributed to retardation and mental illness.

In response to those that think everyone will look the same eventually, I don't believe that. I believe that mobility is slow enough for ethnic variance to remain, along with isolation, due to water.

I like Jos' theory about not programming ethnicity per se , but letting it develop over time. It would be interesting to see the results of the experiment and test our hyposthesis that ethnic variance would naturally develop versus the view that everyone will eventually look the same. I see that happening on earth more readily than Cantr in the coming centuries.

[rklenseth]

I haven't thought too hard about spawning in this context. But with babies: I would envision that we create some kind of 'gene' that describes hair colour, eye colour, etc. and that when a baby is born, it gets a gene that is partly like its father, partly like its mother.

Now, if in some area babies are born, and that for a few generations, then some genes will become common in this area. And hence, at some point it will be striking that for example in Lad. people are blonder than in Tircqi. That way, you would get regional resemblances, even though I do not program them - I just program that you look like your parents.

In fact, I think this is how real life ethnicity came about. The key is that although people travel and migrate, usually a larger proportion stays, and if they keep reproducing, some genes will become more common.

In addition, we could, once we have weather, for example, program that other than the gene also some other factors influence looks. E.g. browning in the sun, or whitening because you live in the forest only. That way some differences might occur between people from different regions (but these would not be intergenerational, so would have less to do with ethnicity).

In fact, this would be a more interesting way to apply it, because then we can all watch and see whether ethnicities come into existence, without me making the decision to program them. So making it visible where someone is from, is explicitly programming ethnicity, while the alternative is to see whether ethnicity develops, without me programming it.

Oh, I must've missed this. I really like this idea.

[sammigurl61190]

I see the Alexian Empire as more a mix between Czarist Russia and Imperial Rome.

I agree--even though I only have one character in Lad main, and that one hasn't been outside in a while, I think that's how it was the short while I was there. Naron is great, though--not at all like the capital.

[The Hunter]

OMG! I didn't want to start a discussion to what government in history Lad comes closest to. Nazi Germany was meant as a metaphor for a opressive government and I think Nazi germany rings a bell to most ppl whereas i doubt if many ppl know what kind of "government" Tzarist Russia implies. But, yesh, you're certainly right, it's closer to what Lad is.

And indeed, when genetics features are simular islandwide, mixing will be slow. Not a lot of boats travel from island to island. And to whether ppl will all look thesame over time: with genetics, some features will be more distinct when mixing, the parents genes only making the offspring's stronger and further away from the average.

[Jos Elkink]

First something important to correct: my comments about weather effects are not an explanation of having black people ... Even though this might be related, but in a different fashion (something like that the black skin can better handle the sun, hence people with a darker skin were better able to survive and reproduce, hence people got darker).

If I were to implement weather effects on looks, those effects would not affect the genes and hence not be passed on to children. Genes are passed on; genes affect looks; other things (e.g. weather) might also affect looks (like people laying on the beach getting darker, without having their genes changed).

I can see the problem with speed of evolution. This might be solved by helping it a little bit by taking account of once location when distributing the initial genes ... But I have to think about that. It's cooler when it is really a 'natural' process without my intervention ... See it as a little experiment ...

And it is also true that time in Cantr goes faster anyway. And many people stay around the area they were spawned anyway (just as people in RL, actually - I just discovered I am the only one from my primary school class who lives abroad ...), so reproduction should also stay fairly local. But not purely. Which is what makes it interesting ...

We can then see if international trade makes it more blurry, for example, as contemporary globalisation people think ... (I am programming Cantr while sitting in the 'Institute for International Integration Studies' after all ...).

Recently, for my studies and out of personal interests, I am reading more and more about artificial intelligence-like subjects (not really, but it takes too long to explain exactly what I'm talking about ...), and this would be a nice experiment in that context.

And I assume it is now clear why 'Naronians' programmed would be a step in the wrong direction? Except for the dynamic naming problem - which is perfectly correct - it would mean we have defined ethnicity before we are going to see if it will occur. People will immediately see what looks Naronians have, etc., and lots of the fun is gone that way. And again, ethnicity is a very complex phenomenon, and it is very doubtful theoretically whether someone is born a 'Dutchman' or socialised that way, etc., and I do not simply want to implement something that makes it clear what you are ...