Fuel Poll

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

Moderators: Players Department, Public Relations Department

Do you want to have motorized vehicles require fuel to run?

Poll ended at Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:43 pm

Yes
30
42%
No
41
58%
 
Total votes: 71
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nitefyre
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Postby nitefyre » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:36 pm

The Sociologist wrote:
Phalynx wrote:What he said! And I agree with others that oil should be more of a sought after resource in cantr!

Well, Xanth is sitting on the oil on one of the islands but, knowing RD, they'll make ethanol easier to manufacture and more efficient to use, and then you'll see that it can only be made from a precise mixture of vegetables found only in Seatown garden.... :wink:


Considering you're sitting on a reserve of oil and luckily had the foresight to prepare bicycles versus motorvehicles...

...say, where have you been getting your insider information?
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The Sociologist
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Postby The Sociologist » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:40 pm

nitefyre wrote:
The Sociologist wrote:
Phalynx wrote:What he said! And I agree with others that oil should be more of a sought after resource in cantr!

Well, Xanth is sitting on the oil on one of the islands but, knowing RD, they'll make ethanol easier to manufacture and more efficient to use, and then you'll see that it can only be made from a precise mixture of vegetables found only in Seatown garden.... :wink:


Considering you're sitting on a reserve of oil and luckily had the foresight to prepare bicycles versus motorvehicles...

...say, where have you been getting your insider information?

Actually, Comrade Fran's own personal vehicle is a dirt motorcycle, since she was prepared to sacrifice capacity for speed. But the rest prefer to treat their bikes as moving houses and so the tandem is still King. But that is a game balancing issue I'm obviously not responsible for.
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Postby Phalynx » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:41 pm

Fight! Fight! Fight!


I say New Xanth has weapons of Mass Destruction and the Mac Gregors need to take them out for the sake of peace in cantr, and if they happen upon some oil well thats just coincidence!!!

:D :D :D
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Postby deadboy » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:41 pm

Oh yeah I forgot how Fran always calls everyone Comrade :D
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Postby nitefyre » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:54 pm

Phalynx wrote:Fight! Fight! Fight!


I say New Xanth has weapons of Mass Destruction and the Mac Gregors need to take them out for the sake of peace in cantr, and if they happen upon some oil well thats just coincidence!!!

:D :D :D


:lol: I doubt the MacGregor's allies of the "Mid-North Council" will be too pleased...but whoever was concerned about what silly places like "Drojf" thought of us? ;)

I just hope the MacGregors aren't bogged down by bringing too few troops to start with.
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Postby Phalynx » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:59 pm

Perhaps the Mac Gregors could bring forward a few meaningless council resolutions first and then attack New Xanth for failing to give up all its steel sabres... After all on occaisions they do use them on innocent Newspawneees!
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Postby Just A Bill » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:41 am

The problem with introducing fuel, then making the cars easier to build is that people have made plans based on the existing system. I know the game is always in beta, but still saying that the car your community has spent years building is now significangly less usefull than advertised is a serious disincentive to continuing to create and build things. Especially if they had waited, the same item they had spent years working on now is significangly easier to make.

Cars may either be like the existing ones, expensive and require no fuel, or the new version, cheaper but requiring fuel.
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wichita
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Postby wichita » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:46 am

I'll post my two cents here and then leave you all to it.

The biggest motivation for this change is economical. Towns with only a handful of resources that can't possibly survive need a stimulus to give them that chance. Oil is one such stimulus that frankly is not being exploited to it's maximum. It is a novelty resource. Currently, the only true reason to get it is to build roads which will only truly benefit those with a car. The average character doesn't have a car because the average player has the attention span of a kitten..........ooh! A butterfly!


Anyway. So, the idea is to implement fuel as a ecomony booster, a way to make those few locations with oil that much more important and so we can finally make the Sociologists' characters rich and happy so he won't have to delete them because they can't kill a pigeon with one punch...but I digress again.


So now everybody freaks out because the proverbial dung has hit the fan. Our vehicles will be useless if we could even afford them to begin with, we're all going to die, if cantr had children then women and children would be first to the life boats, let's hit the big X now. I think there is a 20-something page thread plus five clones about the gathering limits to illustrate my point, and at the end of the day......cantr is alive and well and thriving, despite the best efforts of the staff to kill it all. (And a few of those naysayers are now pointing out that it was indeed a great idea and the game is better off for it because it actually resluted in better organization and a demand for exploration/expansion. :wink: )

So what is my point? The blithering idiots in the Resource Department are working to ensure that this is going to be as balanced as it can be before it sees the light of day (if it ever actually does). This isn't going to be like tiredness - which wasn't actually completely broken, but enough people pissed and moaned until it was taken away to placate the masses.

The big effort now is to balance the average rate of fuel consumption against the rate at which it can be produced. In other words, if two towns are to be supplying oil for an entire continenet, we are going to try and make sure you don't get to spend a day making fuel to drive to the next town. We are trying to make sure that day of work can last one vehicle a sufficient amount of time, so that a few oil towns will be able to meet the demand. Supply and demand.

As for ethanol, biofuels, und so weiter....yes, they will be a very important part of this economic balance. We all know that long distance trade is rare, wether it be because the roads are too slow, or the resources are poorly distributed, or wether players are content sitting where carrots grow freely and they can frolic and roleplay in a loin cloth, bone knife utopia....so we need to do something to cusion the blow. Alternatives will be and should be less efficient, but they won't be crap. Vehicles should still be able to run without an incredible amount of time or effort (especially if an industry happens to spring up, which isn't bloody likely, but one can hope) and the game will continue and we will love it.

The admitted trick will be getting it tweaked just right so that gasoline will still be advantageous and desireable over ethanol, but there is some error. We are trying to fit an equation with about 9000 unknowns using a dozen variables....that takes work. :wink:


End of my two cents. Continue on with your own rant.
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Postby Phalynx » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:33 am

Well Wichita, can't see how anyone can argue against that...

Oh except all the people with cars who can now stop being so smug and self important...
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:01 am

wichita exactly describing the reason why attempts to encourage 'trade' and 'organisation' will likely never work for Cantr wrote:players are content sitting where carrots grow freely and they can frolic and roleplay in a loin cloth, bone knife utopia....
Last edited by formerly known as hf on Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phalynx
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Postby Phalynx » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:21 pm

hallucinatingfarmer wrote:
wichita exactly describing the reason why attempts to encourage 'trade' and 'organisation' will likely never wok for Cantr wrote:players are content sitting where carrots grow freely and they can frolic and roleplay in a loin cloth, bone knife utopia....


Fine they can frolic and play under MY regime :D
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Blake Stone, Jizz Bucket, Patterson Queasley, Billy Sherwood, Chavlet D'Arcy, Johnson.
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Surly
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Postby Surly » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:36 pm

You are aware that, unsurprisingly, gathering rates had none of the intended impacts?

You are also aware that vehicles are barely worth the cost as it is?

You are also aware that making vehicles cheaper is yet another way to punish player loyalty?

You are also aware that vehicles are currently only just worth the cost and effort to build them?

I await the day when we actually consider things before it is implmented. I know how this will go... it will be forgoetten about for a while. then introduced quietly when players are not looking. Then, after the players have been left to deal with it themselves and have taken the inevitable step towards bikes, a change will come that screws them all over.

Maybe I am cynical, but I have a big long list of things I was correct in my opposition to... and I am confident that my predicitions will be proved right.

All in all... meh. The game changes, older players get screwed over, people wonder why there is no trade or incentive to succeed... nothing ever, ever changes. :roll:
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The Sociologist
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Postby The Sociologist » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:43 pm

wichita wrote:I'll post my two cents here and then leave you all to it.

Just want to say thanks for a really interesting post. Excellent feedback. Yes, the balancing issues are always tough and it's good to see them recognized as such and paid attention to.

Now, how about those baked potatoes? :wink: :lol:
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Agar
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Postby Agar » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:05 am

wichita wrote:Anyway. So, the idea is to implement fuel as a ecomony booster ...


The same way making people tired was intented to lead to world war? The same way increasing the amount of food was supposed to end hunger? What kind of logic is it that making something harder when it is already nigh unreasonable will encourage it?

wichita wrote:So now everybody freaks out because the proverbial dung has hit the fan.


Next on the list of machines to code: A fan.

I don't think any part of this is designed to deal with the oldbie advantage or to punish player loyalty. That's a double edged sword that has more than just two edges. Skip it, if you feel like dealing with that issue, start your own thread/poll.

Look at the societies that evolved around iron. Then, look at the societies that evolved around hematite, even when you need more limestone than hematite to make iron. Very controlling, often brutal, regimes, and a breeding ground for CR breeches. Now, look at how few locations have oil. How many lands are there WITHOUT oil? What about the non english/polish lands? Some of them are struggling to make BONE SHIELDS and you want to put cars that much further out of reach?

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Peanut
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Postby Peanut » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:20 am

Aren't there other types of fuel like oil possible?

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