Boycotting Denmark

[Stan]

Hm.. Thanks. I had never heard that word.

[SCUBA]

Ok, maybe it's a languagething but probably not. I'll come back with more soon. So you maybe understand more what I mean.

/SCUBA

[Schme]

No. Islamist is a fanatical muslim. It is the same thing as saying someone is a "Fundamentalist Christian", accept the Qu'ran is the direct word of God, and so it is all fundamental.

A follower of Islam is called a muslim.

[Nick]

if (schme > dictionary.com) then
provide proof

[SCUBA]

Islamism/Islamist Islamist movements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist#Islamist_movements

[rklenseth]

Exactly. The Danes should close it down if they've any sense, and if they've any decency.


I feel the President of Denmark should close down the paper. But the EU couldn't really do that. The EU isn't even in accord about anything. That's not what it's for, anyhow.

This would be wrong.

You're willing to throw freedom of expression and the press straight out the window because you disagree with their opinion and punish a whole people for that.

I'm sorry but we don't live Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia or present day China or even places like Saudi Arabia or Iran. We live in a free world where we're allowed to be bigoted if we want. Doesn't make it morally right but it is our right.

Schme, you believe that everyone should be made to do what you believe is morally right. How does that make us different than China? Or Hitler? Or Stalin? Or even these Muslim fanatics, which the whole point of the cartoon?

So, are you saying that anyone can insult you publicly, and still be cool about it?

Anyone can make fun of what you believe in, and still call it freedom of speech and expression?

If that is how you think, then you have no morals, you have nothing to defend, no cause to live for, nothing to believe in and be jealous about when some morons make fun of it and underestimate it, and show to the whole world what is false about it.

People can publically insult me and my beliefs and people do all the time. And I can defend myself against those people. And I will if I feel it is necessary though sometimes awknowledging their existence just makes things worse as these people want that kind of reaction.

It's their freedom to express themselves and it my freedom to express myself against what they say or do. But I'm not going to go after someone else for their misgivings. Sort of what is happening in this situation with boycotting Denmark for something that a newspaper.

Rather than boycotting Denmark, perhaps you should create a open forum on this issue. Speak out how it offends you (sort of like what you are doing now here) and defend your beliefs through that way. I'm sure that a lot of people in Europe or America do not know that it is offensive to draw the prophet. Speak out against the message that cartoon portrays about Muslims being religious fanatics.

What I would suggest is find the address to that newspaper in Denmark and write a letter to the editor. Tell them what you think and what you believe. And get all of your friends to do it. While you're at it, find out who their competion is in Denmark, and send a letter to them too. I think you can make a greater difference that way.

And people will not always believe what you do and some of those beliefs might be offensive to you. Like I said, the only way you're ever going to solve is if one dominant group comes to world power and either get rid of all those people that disagree with them or in the least silences them. And like I said before, that has yet to work and in my opinion is more wrong than anything else. But that is my opinion which I am defending right now.

[The Sociologist]

Islamism/Islamist Islamist movements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist#Islamist_movements

You know, I'm rather concerned about that article. It seems largely drawn from:

Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West, Robert Spencer, Regnery Publishing, 2003
...which Wikipedia lists as a "book critical of Islam"

Robert Spencer is a member of the Free Congress Foundation, a conservative think tank dedicated to uphold "traditional, Judeo-Christian, Western culture".

Even worse is drawing much too much on the output of Martin Kramer, an Israeli who edited the "Middle East Quarterly", a journal decidedly notorious for Israeli agitprop.

This article lacks the balance that Wikipedia can, at its best, manage to achieve. And after reading it, I still have no certainty that the Muslim world recognizes the term "Islamist" at all. We do not speak of "Christianists".

[SCUBA]

I still have no certainty that the Muslim world recognizes the term "Islamist" at all. We do not speak of "Christianists".

There is a huge differnse between islam and christianity!

Islam exists and is definied as there Allah is in power. There the sharia can be enforced. So therefore the danish newspaper wasn't offending islam mostly but thretening it. So there is in some way a need in islam for islamists to enforce the will of Allah.

Christianity exists and is defined as there people fail to follow Gods will and cries out for mercy. The things that can thretens that is welth, pride, and alike. Therefor there is no need for any christianists to enforce any will of God. There is only a need for evangelists to remind christians all the time about the heart of the gospel so they don't forget and go out and try to enforce the will of God.

/SCUBA

[The Sociologist]

Therefor there is no need for any christianists to enforce any will of God.

You need to read a little more history, I'd say. Try "Spanish Inquisition" In fact, the last blasphemy trial in Britain was held sometime in the late 1970's or early 1980's, as I recall. Yup, you could go to jail, though the law had hardly been enforced for a very long while. Queen Elizabeth is "Defender of the Faith". By your argument, that would surely make her a Christianist, not so?

In fact Islam and Christianity are decidedly similar in most respects, especially if you study Comparative Religions from a sociological perspective and compare them to Buddhism or Shintoism, say.

[Dee]

What I would suggest is find the address to that newspaper in Denmark and write a letter to the editor. Tell them what you think and what you believe. And get all of your friends to do it. While you're at it, find out who their competion is in Denmark, and send a letter to them too. I think you can make a greater difference that way.

Actually that is a very good idea. And I bet millions of muslims are doing what I am doing right now, telling americans and europeans how they feel about this whole thing. I hope this makes a difference.

[SCUBA]

You need to read a little more history, I'd say. Try "Spanish Inquisition" In fact, the last blasphemy trial in Britain was held sometime in the late 1970's or early 1980's, as I recall. Yup, you could go to jail, though the law had hardly been enforced for a very long while.

I didn't say there had never been any "christianists", I know the history too well to not knowing that. There has been way to many. What you maybe missed was that I said that it was a need for evangelists. To in some way stop those "christianists".

Maybe there is som kind of parallell in islam, but still, in islam the islamists is in some way unfortunatelly needed.

Still the christian gospel is totally different to not only islam but also buddhism or shintoism that is more like islam or most other religions. But then you have to leave your sociological perspective and look to what they really say by them self.

/SCUBA

[Schme]

I am again going to try be addressing everything here at once.



Rklenseth, you say we. I don’t know who you mean by we. I know that I am most certainly not part of your collective there. And furthermore, the Danes, the English, the French, the Belgians, and Dutch, the Swedes, and really the rest of the world are not part of your we.

What you call your rights are your rights under your own laws. That does not mean that anyone else cares. Those laws are for America and only America.

Yes, Hitler, Stalin, and countless other people used oppression and violence. They were fools. Like I said before, there is good leadership and bad leadership. Simple as that.

Dictator is now a derogatory term for Americans. Anyone labeled a “Dictator” is evil. Americans do not like the idea of dictatorship because it goes against their nation’s founding principles of freedom for all and so on. What most Americans do not remember is this.

America was founded two hundred years ago. Things have changed. The constitution’s basic ideas are now next to obsolete. They were created for a specific places, namely the thirteen colonies, at a time period two hundred years ago. This was before the industrial revolution. This was before the Second World War. This was before the abolition of legalized slavery in America. Before the invention of the telephone.

Things are no longer the same. What worked for America two hundred years ago is not likely to work for anywhere else now days, and this we have seen.

Nearly every Democracy in the world is filled with people who care only about holding power. Who fills the ranks of government in Modern Democracies. Rich men from rich backgrounds. They say in America anyone can be president. This is a lie.

When a farmer two hundred years ago said a few things against the King of England, did it really make a difference? Nothing was hurt. It was but an insult. Now, in the days of mass media, the misguided and the greedy can spread their messages everywhere, to people who might hurt them. Things are no longer the same. Doesn’t work.


Every time any person suggests a wise government be forceful, they are accused of Nazism by Americans. Nazism is the new heresy.

What you do not get is that strict control and efficient enforcement were only tools used by the Nazis. Were they the first? Did they create these tools? Of course not. These have been around since the beginning of time. Why people hate the Nazis is not because they utilized these age old, internationally used techniques, but for what they used them for.

Force and control is not Nazism. Anyone who says this is so is either ignorant, to lazy to think or trying to defame someone or something.


You talk of your Irish heritage, guy. Well the Irish are Christians.

The Great and Wise King Solomon was an absolute ruler. His decree was law. He had legal control of everything in his Kingdom. He could rape and murder at his discretion, and sometimes did so. But he was remembered as a great leader. And he was appointed to his dictatorial position by the Lord God himself. Is he evil for having wielded absolute power?

Is God evil for wielding absolute power?

When the Lord God sent the plagues upon the ancient Egyptians to help the Jews escape slavery, he was quite obviously using force. Was this evil?

The man who founded the Republic of Turkey was a forceful man, he used violence to achieve his ends. Was he evil?

Force is not evil.

The answer is no.

And you talk about slavery. You are again trying to compare my ideas to something that everyone finds appalling. Cut the crap. I am not proposing slavery, and if you’re no fool, you can see that.

Slavery is when a person owns another person.

I believe people should make sacrifices for their country. Many people are too lazy and to greedy to do that, and are appalled if people even suggest it. Let me tell you something. Anger is not patriotism. Patriotism is not a condition, like thirst. Patriotism is putting your nation and your people ahead of your own good, and ahead of your own success and wealth grubbing.

If you cannot do this, than you are no patriot, whoever you are and wherever you’re from.

As one of your presidents once famously said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.”






You believe Nazism is evil. You believe that the ideology wrong. And you’re saying you would not fight to stop Nazis from coming to power in your nation, and furthermore, would be against those doing so?

If so, I believe you to be a coward and a hypocrite.



Some beliefs are foolish, and have been proven so, guy. Nazism, for example. If you’re smart enough, and you take a bit of effort, you can see that it would not work anywhere in Europe, the United States, or really, anywhere in the modern world.

Taking an action against their entire country is in the same school of thought as somebody thinking you are a terrorist, because of your religion and the fact that there are terrorists who practice the same religion

Not it is not. That would be killing non muslim Danes in the street for being non muslim Danes.


This, as numerous people have said many many times in this very thread is to get the Danish people to do something.

It's really not a very difficult thing to wrap your head around.






Scuba, firstly, I am not just talking about Arabs. That’s a stereotypical rap. Firstly, not all Arabs are Muslims. Secondly, most Muslims aren’t Arabs. And third, Arabs are not all the same people. There is no “Arab situation.” Do you think a rich E.A.U. businessman is the same as that of a truck loader in Lebanon? You’ve got stereotypical views of people’s. You’ve got all these people on racial profiles. You should really educate yourself and seriously rethink what you’ve got going on. Either that, or join the police force. With your way of thinking, you’d make an excellent cop.

I am not talking exclusively about Arabs. Most of the Muslims in Europe are not Arab. I am talking about Muslims.

What you don’t understand is that it is the attitudes and actions, as well as inaction, of the white majority that is creating and spreading Islamism. Do you think that young people would be joining militant groups if they could get decent jobs to support families with, live in a neighborhood not run by hoodlums, make sure their children would not be gunned down in the streets or randomly stopped by police?

Of course not. If things were going well, nobody would be complaining. They’d be happy. But Muslims in West Europe are not considered equal. They are second class citizens, if they are considered citizens at all. They are forced to turn to crime to make any kind of decent living, (or live in extreme poverty and not be able to properly support their families.). To be a successful young Muslim west of Europe, you must get in on the crime game. And who doesn’t want to be successful?

The reason that people are moving towards what you call “fanatical” groups is because they, the people up on street level, can see firsthand, every day, that the present system isn’t working. And it’s not. What would you do in such a situation? Continue to take it up the as.s? No you wouldn’t. You’d fight, and if you didn’t fight, you wouldn’t feel like a man, and that is something no man will put up with if they do not absolutely have to.

“My son is committing crimes, getting locked up, but that’s the best job he can have. Something’s wrong. This here party isn’t working. It’s time for change. I must do something.”

So they go what you call “fanatical”. You mock them. “You stupid Muslims and you’re fucked values. Oh, they’re a joke, they truly truly are, ahaha ahoho! Jeeves, fetch me some more wine.”

If you’re no fool, you can understand that this will not go down well.


Let me ask you something? You’ve got a steady, legal job, haven’t you, Scuba? Or are you in some sort of school? Most of the people in this thread have got one of the two. (This is apply to everyone, not just Scuba. He’s just more interesting than the rest of you.) Do they, in your school, tell you that you cannot practice some basic teachings of you’re faith? Do they tell you’re daughters and sisters to expose themselves?

At work, do you have any chance for advancement or promotion?

Is you’re neighborhood full of drug dealers, frequented by junkies who beg and scrape for money for their next hit? Is it the norm for young men in you’re neighborhood to affiliate themselves with gangs?

And finally, has the police ever stopped you for doing nothing? If so, did they place his hand on your genitals? Did they accuse you of selling drugs? Did they illegally search your car, violating your rights as citizen? Did they beat you up without reason?

That’s how it is. Any man who doesn’t fight that is weak. You can’t tolerate people oppressing you and then persecuting you because of the situation that arises as a result of your oppression. No man can tolerate that.



You say “I’m so upset now that it’s affecting me.” Well guess what? What’s been done? Has anyone said “Fuc.k the Swedes, fu.ck Sweden, may the nation burn in hell with all it’s ideals.”? No. But that is what all the people publishing these cartoons are doing. No one has even mentioned Sweden. You’re upset because “Them uppity Muslims” is telling you what you can and cannot say, telling you that what has been said is wrong, and that angers you. “How dare they say that! We’ve got freedom of speech! Shutup, you godamn Muslims! Freedom of speech! Shut up the Muslims! Freedom of speech!”

You’ve got to realize where people are coming from.

And more importantly, you must realize if this keeps up, the shi.t will hit the fan.

I say this out here to all white people of west Europe. Fix things instead of getting angry that people complain about them. Do things to fix this terrible terrible situation that is going on.

Believe me, listen to my advice. I know what I’m talking about. We’ve the exact same problems here in Canada and America.

Not even poor white people have it the same. This situation is very difficult for well off white people to understand. But it is important for the peace and stability of their nations that they at least make an effort too.

My good friends, if you do not want a desi, a turk, a serb or an African busting into your home and taking all of your shi.t, or torching you’re local bank, robbing your shop, breaking into your car, or setting it on fire, do something. Either that, or get used martial law and racial warfare.

[rklenseth]

I am again going to try be addressing everything here at once.



Rklenseth, you say we. I don’t know who you mean by we. I know that I am most certainly not part of your collective there. And furthermore, the Danes, the English, the French, the Belgians, and Dutch, the Swedes, and really the rest of the world are not part of your we.


What you call your rights are your rights under your own laws. That does not mean that anyone else cares. Those laws are for America and only America.

And I disagree with you. When I say we I mean humanity and I believe humanity are endowed with these rights. You do not believe in such things. That is obvious by your statements.

Yes, Hitler, Stalin, and countless other people used oppression and violence. They were fools. Like I said before, there is good leadership and bad leadership. Simple as that.

So how are you going to force people do to what you want? Violence is the only way you can force people to truly do anything.

Dictator is now a derogatory term for Americans. Anyone labeled a “Dictator” is evil. Americans do not like the idea of dictatorship because it goes against their nation’s founding principles of freedom for all and so on. What most Americans do not remember is this.

America was founded two hundred years ago. Things have changed. The constitution’s basic ideas are now next to obsolete. They were created for a specific places, namely the thirteen colonies, at a time period two hundred years ago. This was before the industrial revolution. This was before the Second World War. This was before the abolition of legalized slavery in America. Before the invention of the telephone.

Obsolete in your opinion. Not obsolete to me. We were founded on freedom. We still continue that pursuit today as our ancestors have had in the past. Have we hit ruts in the road? Most certainly. But should we simply put all aside and give up and convert to whatever some leader tells us to believe?

Things are no longer the same. What worked for America two hundred years ago is not likely to work for anywhere else now days, and this we have seen.

Nearly every Democracy in the world is filled with people who care only about holding power. Who fills the ranks of government in Modern Democracies. Rich men from rich backgrounds. They say in America anyone can be president. This is a lie.

I don't believe that entirely. There are good people in power but not many. That is why I support those that I believe are supporting what I believe is right.

When a farmer two hundred years ago said a few things against the King of England, did it really make a difference? Nothing was hurt. It was but an insult. Now, in the days of mass media, the misguided and the greedy can spread their messages everywhere, to people who might hurt them. Things are no longer the same. Doesn’t work.

So we are to simply be silent because what we might say might happen to offend someone? If we did that then we might at well as put the chains on now and begin praising some leader as the powerful God so that we don't offend them.

Aren't having all these seperate religions offensive to all these religions?

Every time any person suggests a wise government be forceful, they are accused of Nazism by Americans. Nazism is the new heresy.

What you do not get is that strict control and efficient enforcement were only tools used by the Nazis. Were they the first? Did they create these tools? Of course not. These have been around since the beginning of time. Why people hate the Nazis is not because they utilized these age old, internationally used techniques, but for what they used them for.

Force and control is not Nazism. Anyone who says this is so is either ignorant, to lazy to think or trying to defame someone or something.

We equate Nazisms with this because that is the best example that we have in our era that everyone can understand. If I brought up Rome not many here could relate as much as they would with Nazi Germany.

Any act against people's freedom is a wrongful act in my eyes. Doesn't matter what type of government it is or claims to be.

You talk of your Irish heritage, guy. Well the Irish are Christians.

Actually, I'm from the Catholic side.

The Great and Wise King Solomon was an absolute ruler. His decree was law. He had legal control of everything in his Kingdom. He could rape and murder at his discretion, and sometimes did so. But he was remembered as a great leader. And he was appointed to his dictatorial position by the Lord God himself. Is he evil for having wielded absolute power?

Is God evil for wielding absolute power?

When the Lord God sent the plagues upon the ancient Egyptians to help the Jews escape slavery, he was quite obviously using force. Was this evil?

The man who founded the Republic of Turkey was a forceful man, he used violence to achieve his ends. Was he evil?

Force is not evil.

It depends on how that force is used. If force is used to keep people free, or protect innocent people then force it right. But if force is used to make people believe in what they don't or take away their freedoms then force is evil. And if God does it then I believe God is wrong. And I don't agree with everything God does especially in the Old Testament.

The answer is no.

In your opinion.

And you talk about slavery. You are again trying to compare my ideas to something that everyone finds appalling. Cut the crap. I am not proposing slavery, and if you’re no fool, you can see that.

Slavery is when a person owns another person.

That is a literal definition yes but I am referring to slavery methaphorically(sp?). I believe anything that suppresses the free will of humanity is in essence a force of enslavement. And if you think I am giving your ideas appalling examples that must be telling you something that I believe what you would do is appalling.

I believe people should make sacrifices for their country. Many people are too lazy and to greedy to do that, and are appalled if people even suggest it. Let me tell you something. Anger is not patriotism. Patriotism is not a condition, like thirst. Patriotism is putting your nation and your people ahead of your own good, and ahead of your own success and wealth grubbing.

If you cannot do this, than you are no patriot, whoever you are and wherever you’re from.

As one of your presidents once famously said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.”

You believe people should be forced to make sacrifices for their country. I do not. Force virtue isn't virtue. Virtue can come from only that person choosing what that virtue is. People should choose what they fight for and what they die for not what some other asshole chose for them. The same goes for choosing that asshole to choose for them if they so choose.

And force patriotism isn't patriotism.

You believe Nazism is evil. You believe that the ideology wrong. And you’re saying you would not fight to stop Nazis from coming to power in your nation, and furthermore, would be against those doing so?

If so, I believe you to be a coward and a hypocrite.

Hmmmm.....that seems rather low and I thought I was keeping it quite civil and not going into name calling. Anyways, I won't stoop to that level. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and that is that.

Anyways, I believe Nazism is wrong. Now let me make something clear here; I would fight to the bitter end to defend their rights but I would also fight to the bitter end against their beliefs. Meaning if they were to rise to power and go on the destructive path again I would fight them. But I would defend their human rights no matter how wrong I believe their beliefs are. Because that would make me more a hyprocrite than it would if I didn't being that I believe everyone should have the same human rights including my enemies.

[west]

Thoughts from the Boston Globe:

We are all Danes now

HINDUS CONSIDER it sacrilegious to eat meat from cows, so when a Danish supermarket ran a sale on beef and veal last fall, Hindus everywhere reacted with outrage. India recalled its ambassador to Copenhagen, and Danish flags were burned in Calcutta, Bombay, and Delhi. A Hindu mob in Sri Lanka severely beat two employees of a Danish-owned firm, and demonstrators in Nepal chanted: ''War on Denmark! Death to Denmark!"In many places, shops selling Dansk china or Lego toys were attacked by rioters, and two Danish embassies were firebombed.

It didn't happen, of course. Hindus may consider it odious to use cows as food, but they do not resort to boycotts, threats, and violence when non-Hindus eat hamburger or steak. They do not demand that everyone abide by the strictures of Hinduism and avoid words and deeds that Hindus might find upsetting. The same is true of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormons: They don't lash out in violence when their religious sensibilities are offended. They certainly don't expect their beliefs to be immune from criticism, mockery, or dissent.

But radical Muslims do.

The current uproar over cartoons of the Muslim prophet Mohammed published in a Danish newspaper illustrates yet again the fascist intolerance that is at the heart of radical Islam. Jyllands-Posten, Denmark's largest daily, commissioned the cartoons to make a point about freedom of speech. It was protesting the climate of intimidation that had made it impossible for a Danish author to find an illustrator for his children's book about Mohammed. No artist would agree to illustrate the book for fear of being harmed by Muslim extremists. Appalled by this self-censorship, Jyllands-Posten invited Danish artists to submit drawings of Mohammed, and published the 12 it received.

Most of the pictures are tame to the point of dullness, especially compared to the biting editorial cartoons that routinely appear in US and European newspapers. A few of them link Mohammed to Islamist terrorism -- one depicts him with a bomb in his turban, while a second shows him in Heaven, pleading with newly arrived suicide terrorists: ''Stop, stop! We have run out of virgins!" Others focus on the threat to free speech: In one, a sweating artist sits at his drawing board, nervously sketching Mohammed, while glancing over his shoulder to make sure he's not being watched.

That anything so mild could trigger a reaction so crazed -- riots, death threats, kidnappings, flag-burnings -- speaks volumes about the chasm that separates the values of the civilized world from those in too much of the Islamic world. Freedom of the press, the marketplace of ideas, the right to skewer sacred cows: Militant Islam knows none of this. And if the jihadis get their way, it will be swept aside everywhere by the censorship and intolerance of sharia.

Here and there, some brave Muslim voices have cried out against the book-burners. The Jordanian newspaper Shihan published three of the cartoons. ''Muslims of the world, be reasonable," implored Shihan's editor, Jihad al-Momani, in an editorial. ''What brings more prejudice against Islam -- these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras?" But within hours Momani was out of a job, fired by the paper's owners after the Jordanian government threatened legal action.

He wasn't the only editor sacked last week. In Paris, Jacques LeFranc of the daily France Soir was also fired after running the Mohammed cartoons. The paper's owner, an Egyptian Copt named Raymond Lakah, issued a craven and Orwellian statement offering LeFranc's head as a gesture of ''respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual." But the France Soir staff defended their decision to publish the drawings in a stalwart editorial. ''The best way to fight against censorship is to prevent censorship from happening," they wrote. ''A fundamental principle guaranteeing democracy and secular society is under threat. To say nothing is to retreat."

Across the continent, nearly two dozen other newspapers have joined in defending that principle. While Islamist clerics proclaim an ''international day of anger" or declare that ''the war has begun," leading publications in Norway, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, Germany, Switzerland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic have reprinted the Danish cartoons. But there has been no comparable show of backbone in America, where (as of Friday) only the New York Sun has had the fortitude to the run some of the drawings.

Make no mistake: This story is not going away, and neither is the Islamofascist threat. The freedom of speech we take for granted is under attack, and it will vanish if it is not bravely defended. Today the censors may be coming for some unfunny Mohammed cartoons, but tomorrow it is your words and ideas they will silence. Like it or not, we are all Danes now.

[SCUBA]

I am again going to try be addressing everything here at once

Scuba, firstly, I am not just talking about Arabs. That’s a stereotypical rap. Firstly, not all Arabs are Muslims. Secondly, most Muslims aren’t Arabs. And third, Arabs are not all the same people. There is no “Arab situation.”

Have I said that?????
I mentiond many other mostly muslim people earlier and parsonally know severel chrisian and druse arabs.

Don't put words or views on me that isnt there!

Do you think a rich E.A.U. businessman is the same as that of a truck loader in Lebanon? You’ve got stereotypical views of people’s. You’ve got all these people on racial profiles. You should really educate yourself and seriously rethink what you’ve got going on. Either that, or join the police force. With your way of thinking, you’d make an excellent cop.

No, I dont think that. Please tell me where in my earlier posts did you get this from? i dont recognise myself at all. So plase tell me so I understand from what I say, people can ubderstand me like that. I dont whant that to happend.

I am not talking exclusively about Arabs. Most of the Muslims in Europe are not Arab. I am talking about Muslims.

Ok, I know, what is your point? That there is no rasism but religionism againt muslims?

What you don’t understand is that it is the attitudes and actions, as well as inaction, of the white majority that is creating and spreading Islamism. Do you think that young people would be joining militant groups if they could get decent jobs to support families with, live in a neighborhood not run by hoodlums, make sure their children would not be gunned down in the streets or randomly stopped by police?

Now it is you that is not knowing what you are talking about. I we speak about the young people that are joining militant islamistic groups, then you should know a litte more about them. And this I have studied alot, so go find some facts if you whant to dabate against what i now say.

All muslims are not terrorists, but almost all terrorists of today are muslims. They have their motive power in islam as they see it. Listen to what they say! They have no passion for economic justice. They don't fight for the poor in the world. They don't stand up for human rights. They don't care about equality. They hate democracy. Islamistic terrortits are very seldom poor or uneducated. They see their ideal in the 600 700 year meiidle east. Islam was spread with sword (and word) and became a great empire. Therefor espesilly Israel is a scorn to them. To their dreams of islam and only islam. The goal is not some kind of justice for palestinians, they are the one that have exploit the palestinians the most for their sake, its about only one thing. To extinct Israel and the scorn to their dreams. They bomb also Egypt and Saudiarabia because they think that their regims are compromizing with isalm. Isamister hade jews, detests christians and murder without restiction even other muslims if they think they are less orthodox.

Of course not. If things were going well, nobody would be complaining. They’d be happy. But Muslims in West Europe are not considered equal. They are second class citizens, if they are considered citizens at all. They are forced to turn to crime to make any kind of decent living, (or live in extreme poverty and not be able to properly support their families.). To be a successful young Muslim west of Europe, you must get in on the crime game. And who doesn’t want to be successful?

The new swedes in Sweden are in average more educated, have better paid jobs and are more politically represented than the popualtion in general. Their is also alot of new swedes in areas with 90%+ new swedes and big problems, but that you describe above is not true, not in sweden at least.

The reason that people are moving towards what you call “fanatical” groups is because they, the people up on street level, can see firsthand, every day, that the present system isn’t working. And it’s not. What would you do in such a situation? Continue to take it up the as.s? No you wouldn’t. You’d fight, and if you didn’t fight, you wouldn’t feel like a man, and that is something no man will put up with if they do not absolutely have to.

I think I do, already today, fight these things. My job for long time has been as socialworker. Now I am a farmer, but I'm still engaged in social work. I fight these problems and try to change how things are. Mostly about the jews situation in former soviet union, that is very much like you described above. But also in some 90%+ new swedes areas close to me and in west bank and gaza strip.

“My son is committing crimes, getting locked up, but that’s the best job he can have. Something’s wrong. This here party isn’t working. It’s time for change. I must do something.”

Have you ever been to these kind of areas? You talk as if you knew all about it. I think not!

So they go what you call “fanatical”. You mock them. “You stupid Muslims and you’re fucked values. Oh, they’re a joke, they truly truly are, ahaha ahoho! Jeeves, fetch me some more wine.”

If you’re no fool, you can understand that this will not go down well.

You have totally missunderstod me.

Let me ask you something? You’ve got a steady, legal job, haven’t you, Scuba? Or are you in some sort of school? Most of the people in this thread have got one of the two. (This is apply to everyone, not just Scuba. He’s just more interesting than the rest of you.)

See above.

Do they, in your school, tell you that you cannot practice some basic teachings of you’re faith? Do they tell you’re daughters and sisters to expose themselves?

At work, do you have any chance for advancement or promotion?

Is you’re neighborhood full of drug dealers, frequented by junkies who beg and scrape for money for their next hit? Is it the norm for young men in you’re neighborhood to affiliate themselves with gangs?

And finally, has the police ever stopped you for doing nothing? If so, did they place his hand on your genitals? Did they accuse you of selling drugs? Did they illegally search your car, violating your rights as citizen? Did they beat you up without reason?

That’s how it is. Any man who doesn’t fight that is weak. You can’t tolerate people oppressing you and then persecuting you because of the situation that arises as a result of your oppression. No man can tolerate that.

I recognise what you say, but not very much in the consept that we discuss now. This is not how muslims in general feel, not in most areas in europe there they live tight together, not even in the palestinian areas under hard Israeli occupation.

You say “I’m so upset now that it’s affecting me.” Well guess what? What’s been done? Has anyone said “Fuc.k the Swedes, fu.ck Sweden, may the nation burn in hell with all it’s ideals.”? No. But that is what all the people publishing these cartoons are doing. No one has even mentioned Sweden. You’re upset because “Them uppity Muslims” is telling you what you can and cannot say, telling you that what has been said is wrong, and that angers you. “How dare they say that! We’ve got freedom of speech! Shutup, you godamn Muslims! Freedom of speech! Shut up the Muslims! Freedom of speech!”

Sorry, i didn't mean that. I hope I haven't written that bad things. I think that the publishing was bad! I do! Not because it angers muslims and thats effecting me. I think it was bad beceause it offends many muslims, and it is not right to offend others.

You’ve got to realize where people are coming from.

And more importantly, you must realize if this keeps up, the shi.t will hit the fan.

I say this out here to all white people of west Europe. Fix things instead of getting angry that people complain about them. Do things to fix this terrible terrible situation that is going on.

Believe me, listen to my advice. I know what I’m talking about. We’ve the exact same problems here in Canada and America.

Not even poor white people have it the same. This situation is very difficult for well off white people to understand. But it is important for the peace and stability of their nations that they at least make an effort too.

My good friends, if you do not want a desi, a turk, a serb or an African busting into your home and taking all of your shi.t, or torching you’re local bank, robbing your shop, breaking into your car, or setting it on fire, do something. Either that, or get used martial law and racial warfare.[/

This I agree!

/SCUBA
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