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west
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Postby west » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:55 am

rklenseth wrote:
David G wrote:{That's why I added the catholic one so he could claim "not in my bible}


Depends which Catholic Bible and from what time period and what Catholic culture. :wink:

And the Bible was still being pieced together at this time that this Roman Emperor was alive by early Christians. It wouldn't be until the Roman Empire actually adopted Christianity as the official Roman religion that a real Bible ever comes out. The only things that existed before were versions written by different Christians sects and the Dead Sea Scrolls which were later hidden by the Jewish people so that they would not be destroyed by the Romans. During this time, most Bible stories came from word of mouth stories past down from generation to generation.

So it is most likely that 666 or the Beast which refers to that Roman Emperor is used as symbolsim to the Anti-Christ because many Christians of that time called this particular Roman Emperor the Anti-Christ for what he did against Christians.


don't take this the wrong way, RK, but do you actually know much early christian history?
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rklenseth
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Postby rklenseth » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:45 am

Why? Do you know it a different way? You have to understand that there are so many different accounts and versions and because so many different forms that it is really hard to piece together anything on early Christians religion.

I do knw for a fact that Christianity was underground up until it was accepted into Roman society but early on many Romans were prejudice towards Christians. There wasn't any real Bible until it became popular in Roman society and accepted. Yes, there were Bibles but they were all different from the next one and varied from community to community and were mainly made up of the some of the books of the New Testament and very few of the stories from Old Testament. The only written full account of the Old Testament by the Jewish people were in the Dead Sea Scrolls and as we discover more and more of them we are learning that the Old Testament in Christianity is mainly wrong and contradicts the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most of the Jewish religion at that time and before was mainly taught by word of mouth as well as their stories. It wasn't until later that the Jewish people began writing the stories down and they mainly come from what they heard. Even if you read the Jewish version of the Old Testament or Tora as they call it, you will see that it is very different to the Old Testament that Christians read. Toward the fall of the Roman Empire, one of the Roman Emperors (who was secretly already Christian) adopted Christianity as the official Roman religion and cast out the 'old Greek Pagan Gods'. Thus the beginnings of the Roman Catholic Church and the reason why it is based Italy and near Rome. The Romans then succeeded in bringing Christianity to the Northern Europeans who didn't grab hold of the religion at first but by the time the Roman Empire and Europe sunk into what they call the Dark Ages and well into the Middle Ages most Pagan religions died out and Christianity took it's place. Now the Bible itself was originally written in Greek which came from bits and pieces of the vernacular that the stories came from or the already existing written accounts but then was translated to Latin which became the official language of the Roman Catholic Church. In each culture that Christianity was spread to, a little bit of Christianity was changed in order to conform with the culture and to be widely accepted. So in each place Christianity changed just a little bit as according to the culture that already existed. A good example of that is Ireland and how, even after they became Roman Catholic, they kept much of their Pagan believes including what we know as Halloween which was later intergrated into Irish Roman Catholic belief. So in each place, Christianity changed and when the Reformation came about and then the Counter Reformation, you had all these 'Protestant' Christians religions popping up. You had Lutherians, Calvinist, and Anglicans. All them were very different from each other as well as Roman Catholicism and each interpreted what they read differently or took ideas that the other would not. Then you would have to count all of the Unitarians and such that didn't believe in organized Christian religion and interpreted thinkgs differently than the organized religions. Then you had all of the religious war. The Thirty Years War for instance was fought among Protestants and Catholics over what was right or not right as well as to who controlled places like the Netherlands and Germany etc. Oh, and I forgot that after the Protestant religions formed their big thing was to translated the Bible in vernacular so that the lay could read them instead of just the those who had the money to get an education. In America, when all of the Irish and Italians came over, each ethnic group had to establish their own Catholic Church in a community because a. they hated each other and b. even though they were both considered Roman Catholics their versions are very different from one another. Nowadays, we don't see all that much of it becuase the Roman Catholic Church has united as well as it keeps good tabs with other Christians religions so that most interpretations are mostly the same so that a more united Christian religion can be formed.

Plus, I would like to point out that the Bible was written by humans and not God and that it was translated and interpreted by humans and not God. God might have has a hand in having it written or whatever (though that would go against his promise to Noah after the Great Flood) but either way it is my belief that no human speaks for God or dare knows his mind. Thus the reason why there are so many interpretations and each person claiming their's is right and the only right one. Personally it is my belief that all religions are the same and that all the gods are the same. We humans just interpreted God's words in different ways and so on.

Now does anyone want to discuss the Bible Codes? They are very interesting.
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Postby The Industriallist » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:10 am

How did you get from boats to a debate on the history of the Bible?

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Postby The Hunter » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:12 am

Actually, the bible is the only book I'd like to see burned. Well, including the tora, the old jewish testament... Oh, and while we're busy, throw all other religious books on the burning pile aswell...

Damn, I hate religion. Lets just find another excuse to slaughter other groups instead of religion.

This is a completely non constructive post, but i just had to tell how i think of religion, no, what is done in the name of religion, but what the hell, this thread was about boats anyway.

Boats: They float.

(Hope i dint ofend anyone).
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Postby kroner » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:13 am

I'm not even gonna touch this one. When I start talking about religion, people tend to get angry....

That and I have no knowledge at all of any of this stuff.

edit: I think Orion's post sums it up rather well.
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Postby rklenseth » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:23 am

Orion, Hunter and guide wrote:Actually, the bible is the only book I'd like to see burned. Well, including the tora, the old jewish testament... Oh, and while we're busy, throw all other religious books on the burning pile aswell...

Damn, I hate religion. Lets just find another excuse to slaughter other groups instead of religion.

This is a completely non constructive post, but i just had to tell how i think of religion, no, what is done in the name of religion, but what the hell, this thread was about boats anyway.

Boats: They float.

(Hope i dint ofend anyone).


I'm not too much into the book burning thing (Oh, and we can thing of a whole lot of things to slaughter each other for and we already have). But onto boats. Yeah, a boat from the Netherlands capsized in the Port of Albany. A rescue mission is currently underway to save three sailors that are still missing. Chances are that there dead and it would seem that the boat might break lose from the lines and sink into the harbor. What I don't get is that most of the sailors on the boat were Russian. Is it often that boats from the Netherlands hire Russian sailors or is it a conincidence? Just seemed kind of wierd to me.
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Postby The Hunter » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:47 am

Actually, usually the majority of a ships crew is fereign/non european. There's even ships sailing where only the captain is dutch and they are debating whether or not allowing non dutch/E.U. captains. Reason for this is because there's a shortage of Dutch officers. (and foreigners being cheap also helps. :evil: )Dutch ppl just can't be tricked into a sailor's career anymore and I must say that i was stupid to try. Life sucks on board. (Did I say life?)

Can you tell me the name of the ship and maybe the name of the sailors? It's a small world,, so you never know.
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west
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Postby west » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:39 am

rklenseth wrote:Why? Do you know it a different way? You have to understand that there are so many different accounts and versions and because so many different forms that it is really hard to piece together anything on early Christians religion.

I do knw for a fact that Christianity was underground up until it was accepted into Roman society but early on many Romans were prejudice towards Christians. There wasn't any real Bible until it became popular in Roman society and accepted. Yes, there were Bibles but they were all different from the next one and varied from community to community and were mainly made up of the some of the books of the New Testament and very few of the stories from Old Testament. The only written full account of the Old Testament by the Jewish people were in the Dead Sea Scrolls and as we discover more and more of them we are learning that the Old Testament in Christianity is mainly wrong and contradicts the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most of the Jewish religion at that time and before was mainly taught by word of mouth as well as their stories. It wasn't until later that the Jewish people began writing the stories down and they mainly come from what they heard. Even if you read the Jewish version of the Old Testament or Tora as they call it, you will see that it is very different to the Old Testament that Christians read. Toward the fall of the Roman Empire, one of the Roman Emperors (who was secretly already Christian) adopted Christianity as the official Roman religion and cast out the 'old Greek Pagan Gods'. Thus the beginnings of the Roman Catholic Church and the reason why it is based Italy and near Rome. The Romans then succeeded in bringing Christianity to the Northern Europeans who didn't grab hold of the religion at first but by the time the Roman Empire and Europe sunk into what they call the Dark Ages and well into the Middle Ages most Pagan religions died out and Christianity took it's place. Now the Bible itself was originally written in Greek which came from bits and pieces of the vernacular that the stories came from or the already existing written accounts but then was translated to Latin which became the official language of the Roman Catholic Church. In each culture that Christianity was spread to, a little bit of Christianity was changed in order to conform with the culture and to be widely accepted. So in each place Christianity changed just a little bit as according to the culture that already existed. A good example of that is Ireland and how, even after they became Roman Catholic, they kept much of their Pagan believes including what we know as Halloween which was later intergrated into Irish Roman Catholic belief. So in each place, Christianity changed and when the Reformation came about and then the Counter Reformation, you had all these 'Protestant' Christians religions popping up. You had Lutherians, Calvinist, and Anglicans. All them were very different from each other as well as Roman Catholicism and each interpreted what they read differently or took ideas that the other would not. Then you would have to count all of the Unitarians and such that didn't believe in organized Christian religion and interpreted thinkgs differently than the organized religions. Then you had all of the religious war. The Thirty Years War for instance was fought among Protestants and Catholics over what was right or not right as well as to who controlled places like the Netherlands and Germany etc. Oh, and I forgot that after the Protestant religions formed their big thing was to translated the Bible in vernacular so that the lay could read them instead of just the those who had the money to get an education. In America, when all of the Irish and Italians came over, each ethnic group had to establish their own Catholic Church in a community because a. they hated each other and b. even though they were both considered Roman Catholics their versions are very different from one another. Nowadays, we don't see all that much of it becuase the Roman Catholic Church has united as well as it keeps good tabs with other Christians religions so that most interpretations are mostly the same so that a more united Christian religion can be formed.

Plus, I would like to point out that the Bible was written by humans and not God and that it was translated and interpreted by humans and not God. God might have has a hand in having it written or whatever (though that would go against his promise to Noah after the Great Flood) but either way it is my belief that no human speaks for God or dare knows his mind. Thus the reason why there are so many interpretations and each person claiming their's is right and the only right one. Personally it is my belief that all religions are the same and that all the gods are the same. We humans just interpreted God's words in different ways and so on.

Now does anyone want to discuss the Bible Codes? They are very interesting.


you amaze me.
first of all, the bible codes are fake. you can get just as 'prophetic' messages from doing the same thing to Moby Dick.

Second of all, the Hebrew Bible (torah) is in fact identical to the Christian Old Testament. And the Old Testament was standardized and viewed as complete by Jesus' time.

Thirdly, you're right about the Catholic Church's origins in the Roman Empire, and how it adopted pagan rituals and stuff so the natives would find christianity easier to digest, but keep in mind it was minor traditions that changed, not the bible itself.

And where does God promise Noah he wouldn't give Scripture to his people? What he actually says is "yo, i'm not going to destroy the earth by water next time." ---I paraphrased a bit.
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Postby sammigurl61190 » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:50 am

Y'all can have this conversation without me because religion is something I haven't partaken in in years. 8)
west
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Postby west » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:55 am

yeah come to think of it this is REALLY REALLY off-topic.

let's drop it and get back to boats:

Mine's still stuck. and buggy.
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Postby sammigurl61190 » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:56 am

Crappy buggy boats. They suck. :D
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Postby swymir » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:47 am

I beleive all religion was just early science. Ways to explain things that they couldn't so long ago. I mean what religion has come up lately. Not a single one. The last one was like 200 years ago or something. All you see now is science explaining everything that is in the bible with logic. My favorite is the moses story with the plagues of Egypt. (All because of a volcano that erupted some 300 miles away)
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Postby The Hunter » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:01 pm

Swymir wrote:I beleive all religion was just early science. Ways to explain things that they couldn't so long ago. I mean what religion has come up lately. Not a single one. The last one was like 200 years ago or something. All you see now is science explaining everything that is in the bible with logic. My favorite is the moses story with the plagues of Egypt. (All because of a volcano that erupted some 300 miles away)


No new religios? there's 100's of them, they're commonly called cult's tho. Not always appropriate. They're just not as large, but then, other religions had 1000's of years to become widespread. And yeah, a lot of the story's described in the bible (old testament mainly) have been proven to have happened. The bible just used those in its own advantage.

Like the big flood. Wasn't it the black sea where it's supposed to have occured? Which brings us back to.... Boats?
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"Our enemies are resourceful and innovative".

"and so are we..."

They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and people"

"and neither do we"

~G.W Bush
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Postby rklenseth » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:43 pm

Yes, Orion is correct. Also there are various individual religions because anything that has to so with your principles and moral beliefs is a religion. Religion doesn't have to be concerned with a higher deity which is often confused with. Plus, I believe some Protestant Christian religions started in the past hundred years. But I see Swymir's point that no major religion has really grown since.


There is the article from one of our local newspapers (The Times Union) about the capsizing, Orion. I don't think any names have been released yet because usually names aren't released until the families of the injured or dead are contacted first sort of as a courtesy so that they don't learn that one of their loved ones died on the news or in the paper. And I'm sure since these sailors are foreign that it would be a couple of days before the names are released because contacting the families will be a little bit harder.

3 feared lost in port drama
Cargo ship tips over; crewmen saved from icy waters

Staff reports
First published: Wednesday, December 10, 2003

Three crew members remained missing this morning after a Dutch cargo ship listed and partially sank at the Port of Albany at about 3 p.m. Tuesday. The accident involving the Stellamare tossed several men into the icy waters of the Hudson River and prompted the Coast Guard to close the river, left the ship tilted at a 50-degree angle, and may have killed three seamen.

It marks the city's worst maritime accident in decades.

The ship's 18-man crew was loading the second of two General Electric generators, each weighing roughly 250 tons, when the boat listed to port, rolled and became partially submerged in about 30 feet of water. Several crewmen had to be pulled from the frigid river.

No sounds of life have been heard inside the vessel since then, and three crewmen are unaccounted for. The 289-foot Stellamare is a heavy lift ship out of Willemstad, Curacao, in the Netherlands Antilles.

"When they picked up the piece and started to move it over the hatch, the ship started to lean and it got away from them," said Paul Fisher, a retired foreman with the port's longshoremen's crew who said he spoke with a dozen of his former colleagues after the accident. "Somebody screwed up."

"Our guys were screaming, 'Stop!' There wasn't enough ballast on the inshore side and they kept screaming, 'Stop!' But there was some kind of language barrier and they didn't stop."

A preliminary look found no oil spill, the state Department of Environmental Conservation reported.

Albany Fire Battalion Chief Bill Hummel said the call for help from the port was so unusual that dispatcher Ken Marks made a special phone call to him as well.

"He told me I wouldn't believe it, but it was a big cargo ship that turned over," the chief said. "Even when we got to the scene and I saw it, but I couldn't believe it. Twenty-eight years on the job next month, and this is the weirdest."

Firefighters worked with the stevedores on shore. "They (stevedores) already had one man out when we got there, but we got the other three with the tugs. That was a great save by the guys."

Fisher said longshoremen often operate the cranes aboard ship, but never on the Stellamare, which typically has a highly regarded crew skilled with the cranes.

On Tuesday, two Stellamare crane operators were working the shipboard cranes in tandem, coordinated by a chief officer or captain via radio, he said. Longshoremen were aboard the ship to observe the lift, but did not direct it or operate the cranes, he said.

"When you work by sight, hand signals are universal and everyone understands them," Fisher said. "The radio must have caused the communication breakdown."

As the afternoon unfolded, attempts to search the ship for the missing seamen, believed to be inside the hull, proved fruitless as darkness, receding tides and the absence of an interior ship diagram hampered divers from the city, county and state. The divers wore "dry suits" to protect them from the frigid waters. Still, their work was curtailed by the cold.

Generators loaded onto the ship are usually placed on a metal holding platform, then welded into place to prevent shifting, said Deacon Dick Walker of the Albany Maritime Ministry.

Meanwhile, four Stellamare crewmen from St. Petersburg, Russia, ranging in age from 28 to 53, were taken by ambulance to St. Peters' Hospital with cuts and exposure. Dr. Samuel Bosco, chief of emergency medicine, said they clearly were removed from the water quickly, because hypothermia could have occurred within minutes. All were expected to be discharged.

Two patients were taken to Albany Medical Center Hospital. One was from New Jersey, the other from Russia. They were expected to be admitted. Albany Memorial Hospital also treated patients, including a Russian man who spent several minutes in the water and feared his friend may have succumbed. None of the sailors had life-threatening injuries.

A nearby tugboat, the Rhea I. Bouchard, plucked one man from the icy waters and another from the hull of the ship. Water temperature in the Hudson was estimated at close to 32. Even if uninjured, a human cannot survive more than several minutes in water that cold, medical experts said.

The boat, bound for Italy and Romania, was already holding 600 tons of cargo when it started taking on water, said Albany Mayor Jerry Jennings. The Stellamare is owned by Jumbo Shipping Co., a worldwide shipping company. A company spokesman said its Russian representative contacted the seamen's families Tuesday.

By early evening, the U.S. Coast Guard had taken official command of the scene. The Coast Guard sent a 49-foot rescue boat from Saugerties to the port and an investigative team by land from New York City, Petty Officer Mike Lutz said.

The river current, which had been increased by the outgoing tide, slowed to pond-quiet about 1 a.m. just after low tide. It was then that the "Empire," a small work boat, began to move around the ship, breaking up accumulating snow and ice.

The "Empire" was under contract to Clean Harbors Environmental Services, which was in charge of any pollution control. Throughout the night and into the early morning hours of Wednesday, Clean Harbors crews scurried into the dock area, bringing in equipment and setting up for what appeared to be an extended period of salvage.

Federal Marine Terminals Inc., which oversees cargo loading and unloading at the Port of Albany, will aid the investigation, said Paul Gourdeau, executive vice president. He said he believes the ship's crew was hoisting cargo aboard with the vessel's onboard crane when the ship began listing.

"The reason for this happening, I don't know at this point," he said, in a phone interview from his office in Montreal. "It will probably take a long time to investigate fully."

Gourdeau said Federal Marine employees were dockside at the time of the accident. None were injured. Federal Marine is the Montreal-based company that has managed loading and unloading at the port since 1996, when it acquired Meehan Overseas Terminal's operations in Albany and elsewhere. It manages cargo at seven other U.S. and Canadian ports.

The company employs three people full-time at the Albany port, and hires on dozens of workers from Local 1294 of the International Longshoremen's Association to handle the cargo.

Gourdeau said there have been no other similar accidents at ports under its watch, and that he was not aware of any safety problems at the Albany facility.

During the night, a large Dumpster-type container, bigger than a trailer truck, was hauled in by a tow truck and later a mobile-home-sized office was also brought on site by another tow truck. Clean Harbors vehicles also brought in at least two small workboats on trailers, apparently to have them ready for launch at daybreak.

Several booms used to contain pollutants in water were being readied overnight, but there was no sign that any fuel oil had leaked from the ship.

Coast Guardsmen made regular patrols along the docks, often pausing to apparently take laser measurements of the ship to see if the rising and falling tides had caused the Stellamare to shift.

The port remained closed to all traffic early this morning a mile north and south. Sound-monitoring equipment at three spots on the hull was turned off shortly before 11 p.m., Jennings said.

Fisher, who said he has been involved in a hundred or more heavy lifts over the years, including many aboard the Stellamare, speculated the generator that set off the chain reaction never made it aboard, but sank to the bottom of the Hudson after the cranes failed.

"It will be a massive recovery effort to remove those heavy pieces and right the ship," Fisher said.

In the stillness of the night, ice floes on the water could be heard cracking and crunching into each other. Most of the ice was created by truckloads of snow being dumped by the city and state at the Snow Dock, upstream of the capsize site.
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Postby The Hunter » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:18 pm

The stella mare? Damn. Somebody really didn't do his calculations. :(
I know the ship only by name. But still, it's a stupid accident, and people drowning whilke just a few metres from the key is really harsh.

Thing is, being a sailor always has been a dangerous job, but it's that accidents happen more and more lately.

Oh, and language barrier? heh... That word is just as commonly understood as f***. The cranedrivers should have noticed themselves something was wrong btw.

Man, i can still remember when my ship almost capsized. Damn Polisch drunk F*** nearly got us killed because he didnt ballast like i told him. Some of those foreigners on board are a danger to us all. Understand why i want to quit? :evil:

Thanx BTW for typing it out for me. :)
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"Our enemies are resourceful and innovative".

"and so are we..."

They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and people"

"and neither do we"

~G.W Bush

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