The Crusades

[chadpants]

Then, at the moment your eyes close on this world, you won't have fear. You won't be headed toward an eternity to an unknown hell. You'll be headed to a better place.

There could be no better place, in my opinion, than the here and now.

The human condition we call life is such a beautiful dance. Sometimes the wonderful craziness of it all is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes.

I want to live the best I can, treat everyone as well as I would want to be treated, and do my part to make this world a better place. I try to base each decision on how it will affect life - mine and everyone else's - at this moment. I would hate for every action and decision I make to ensure I have front-row seats in the afterlife, to find out it's not what I thought, if it is at all.

And if I'm wrong and there's a place called Hell where I will be sent by a god who is all-loving to spend an eternity of torture... er, I can't wrap myself around that.

[Pie]

7 LEVLES OF HELL!!!!! THERE ARE 7 LEVLES OF HELL!!! one of them might just be deprevation of heben, and the 7th will SHURLY BE RESERVED FOR CRAZY MURDERER PEOPLE WHO EAT OTHER PEOPLES BRAINS AND DON'T DRINK FLORADA ORANJE JUEC!!!!!!!!


I'v alredy said that. That isn't a reason at all. Also,FAITH. If you don't have enough fath to just believ, then i am AMAZED.

Seriously, i have noticed.. It would take Me MUCH MORE FATH TO BE ATHIEST THAN TO BE CRISTIAN.

Also... You are thinking in a way that i usually DONT THINK. But if i had time to.. i would think that way. I would think before each ant i step on. But.... What the bible says, the comandments, jesuses teachings, what makes them bad for other people? It sais to be cind and courtious to other people. It sais not to hate(WHoa, i have ALOT of trouble on that one) He sais to JUST LIV!!!!!(Oh, and remember, ITS NOT THE WORKS YOU DO, ITS THE WORKS YOU LIVE!!!!)

[Mafia Salad]

All-Loving doesn't mean God is a giant teddy bear in the sky who hands out blessings and want everyone to be happy. He has a plan to rid the world of corruption, sin and evil; which came from rebellion against God. Evil which all humanity indulges in, condemning ourselves to destruction.

And he has lovingly provided a way for us to escape our just punishment. He, the all powerful God who created the universe, became human and was tortured an killed by human hands to provide us a way to escape this destruction and ultimately Hell. That is the love he has shown us. In his love he gave us a way out, then he left the choice up to us. The ball is in our court.

And pie, I still don't know where these seven levels you are talking about come from.

[Pirate Lass]

And pie, I still don't know where these seven levels you are talking about come from.

Perhaps he's getting things mixed up a bit....

There are SEVEN deadly sins

As far as levels of hell, Dante's Inferno outlines NINE levels of hell, associated with those deadly sins and a few others.

[formerly known as hf]

HF, it really isn't about what you're comfortable with. Not to sound like an ass, but it really doesn't. Even if I'm wrong the truth has nothing to do with what you're comfortable with.

If you are right, you are right. If you are wrong you are wrong. It has nothing to do with your feelings.

I know that, but at the same time, at least I acknowledge that the reason I think what I think about what is 'right' is probably more to do with my own decision and outlook.

But, you base your belief system on something you've made up. You don't even have a doctrine to live by. It's much easier to not make mistakes if there is no "right way".

Woah, hang on a sec. My belief system? I don't have a belief system, or a faith. I don;t place my faith in science, simply because I know it can be wrong. Science is not a belief system, or at least I wouldn't see it as such.

As for doctrine? No, I am very proud I am not indoctrinated. My morals, my "right way" - they are based on the ethics I have developed as a child from teachings, and from my own decisions, and from listening to and caring about the views of others. I would much rather have my "right way", my set of moral values based upon what I see to be right, what I feel to be right, what those around me know to be good, rather than the preachings of a book which has little to no proof behind it, and the ravings of people who preach from the book.

What disgusts me most about religions, of almost all kinds, not in the least Christianity, is the utter hypocracy of the moral doctrine. As I have said before. If someone was to follow the Bible for its word, they would be killing people left right and centre. This may not be the case, as, thankfully most people have developed a set of social values beyond just what is in the Bible. Nethertheless, it can and is used to justify all sorts of horrendous acts. I am very glad, and proud, that I do not draw my morals from such a unstable, and frankly, unreliable, source.

EDIT: I am also proud that when I decide that something is wrong, and I do not do it, it is not because I am scared of some kind of godly damnation in hell, I do it of my own choice. The only pressure on me not to 'sin' is from myself, which, as I see myself as a fairly decent person, is something I can take pride in. I do not need the threat of eternal damnation to kepp me 'good', if a doctrine needs that kind of threat to make sure people are 'good' - than that seems to me that there is a lot of willpoer lacking to do 'good' things, or, that what is 'good' for that doctrine is so warped that the only way to get people to follow it is to scare them into it.

[chadpants]

I am also proud that when I decide that something is wrong, and I do not do it, it is not because I am scared of some kind of godly damnation in hell, I do it of my own choice. The only pressure on me not to 'sin' is from myself, which, as I see myself as a fairly decent person, is something I can take pride in. I do not need the threat of eternal damnation to kepp me 'good', if a doctrine needs that kind of threat to make sure people are 'good' - than that seems to me that there is a lot of willpoer lacking to do 'good' things, or, that what is 'good' for that doctrine is so warped that the only way to get people to follow it is to scare them into it.

Unfortunately, that is true. It takes a lot of deep reflection and examination to determine what is good, and a lot of foresight to realize that you reap all you sow, and that each action a person makes has far reaching ramifications to all of humanity and life. There are a great deal of people who would prefer to have it handed to them so they do not have to participate in that amount of reflection...I'm not saying everyone that is religious falls in this category. It's the same reason we have laws. People don't want to take the time to do what's right all the time, so they have to be threatened.

[Stan]

God cannot exist with sin. Sin means apart from God's will. The two are opposites.

God provided a "loving" way, but most people won't reach out and grab it. God's not going to force you, too.

Hell is a place that exists without God's presence. God didn't equip it with whips and chains. What happens there will be what people make it out to be. I've seen some of things evil people can do here on earth in a limited amount of time, I shudder to think what they're capable of given eternity to plan and execute such plans.

There is no place in the Bible that really describes hell or any levels of it. It is simply a place where God is not present. I guess you could say, "what happens in hell stays in hell".

[Nalaris]

Sigh...Pie, you are so closed minded. Do you have any idea how much effort I've put into wondering whether or not what I believe is true? Have you ever doubted? Because sometimes it's good to have some doubt, because when you shake it off, you come out stronger.

By the time of Noah, people had decided "Okay, we no longer live forever, our days can't be a million years long anymore, a day will be from when the sun comes up to when it goes down." The ultra-long days only apply to before Adam and Eve, before Mortality was known to man.

God is not an enforcer. Every law he makes is made to better mankind. If everyone did what God asked, we'd all be happier, Heaven and Hell aside.

The Bible in the Old Testament was the old "Eye for an Eye" way. Pie got that one right, at least. When Christ came, he said, pretty much litterally "Okay, we all know that's not working because you're not perfect. My way offers you a way out." Christ's way is like a cheat sheet, except it's legal and almost as hard as taking the test without it. Almost. Point is, in the Old Testament you could kill people left right and center so long as they would do the same or had done the same. And all of them would've killed Israelites left right and center if the Israelites let them.

HF, I hate to break it to you, but you do have a belief system. Your belief system is, quite simply "this is wrong, I'm not going to do it." That's your entire Bible, and you wrote it yourself. It's a belief system and a doctrine that has nothing to do with an afterlife. The only way to not have a belief system is to not believe anything. And even then, you'd have to believe that everything is unbelievable. Your belief system simply doesn't concern the afterlife. Whether or not you want to change that is your life, I'm not going to waste the energy breaking the doctrines of my faith trying to get you to follow them.

Pie, I believe that Christ is just a man with amazing, totally unbreakable willpower. Someone who's been given a superhuman capability to resist. He's amazing. He's an example to us all. But I believe that he's not a part of God literally. I don't believe God came down to Earth as Christ. I think that Christ was the only one who could love enough to make God's plan work. He's our big brother, not our Father. I'm not saying this makes Christ any less worthy, I'm just saying thta he's not God, he's an individual.

[Stan]

Christ not being God is false. He himself does not leave that as an option Nalaris.

In John 17:5 Jesus says, "Glorify me with the glory that I had with the Father before the world began."

When asked if he was the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One. He answers, "I am and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the Right hand of the Mighty One and coming o the clouds of heaven."

He also said, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am." You'll note that in the OT when Moses asked God His name he said "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you."

It's clear that Jesus said he was God. So either he was lying or is God. Being a great man but only a man isn't an option.

Oh yeah, and the most obvious one:

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

[Pie]

Ehem.... If god is Omnipowerful, Omnicienc(All knowing.. Ya.. it triked me to) Omni EVERYTHING, then you think he would have told people to say DAYS??? NO, he would have tolld them MILION YEARS. Uness he actually wanted to make the bible rong, your way isn't right.

No lukewarmness... i want MY POTATOE HOT!!!!

And just for the record.. yes i have doubted before... then of course i forgot what i was doubting and came RIGHT BACK INTO THE FRAY!!!!

[formerly known as hf]

then you think he would have told people to say DAYS??? NO, he would have tolld them MILION YEARS. Uness he actually wanted to make the bible rong, your way isn't right.

You haven't even read my posts have you pie? You're so blind to everything else. As I have stated before, the Bible has been re-written and translated numerous times. Hence, whatever, if anything, God may have said at the time, is probably warped in the Bible. Hence, it might say days in the Bible because someone translated it as that. It originally might have been more ambiguous.

[chadpants]

There is no place in the Bible that really describes hell or any levels of it. It is simply a place where God is not present. I guess you could say, "what happens in hell stays in hell".

Actually, Hell is a translation of Gehenna. Gehenna was an area outside the city where trash was thrown out, then continually burned. Often included with the trash were the bodies of criminals that were executed. So the reference about sinners burning in Hell was the inference that a life of sin will have you tried and executed, only to end up in the fires of Gehenna, thus Hell. Somehow that came to become an afterlife punishment for not being "saved", or a no-God zone.

[Stan]

I realize that's where the word came from. But, Jesus tells a parable about a man named Lazarus who was in hell.

In Revelation there are several references to hell as well. Jesus tells John that, "I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and Hades."

That's not the only reference. So, I think it's wrong to assume that hell is not a real place just because there's not a good explanation of what's there.

[Pie]

then you think he would have told people to say DAYS??? NO, he would have tolld them MILION YEARS. Uness he actually wanted to make the bible rong, your way isn't right.

You haven't even read my posts have you pie? You're so blind to everything else. As I have stated before, the Bible has been re-written and translated numerous times. Hence, whatever, if anything, God may have said at the time, is probably warped in the Bible. Hence, it might say days in the Bible because someone translated it as that. It originally might have been more ambiguous.

Havnt i alredy gon over this with you? *Sigh* The bible, Was originally carried by memory,Example..... the apostles.... for maby... 4 years. And you must take into fact that in those times, people were memorizing THE INTYER TORA(Isn't that the jewish bible?) So they have REALLY GOOD MEMORY. Also, the bible is in a rithmic pattern, making it easyer to remember(Espetially in Hebrew.. the language that it rymes in). So, deluting the bible there wouldn't have happened easily verbally. YES, even after 4 years. Also, to justify the old testimant.. i really wouldn't know, but you would think that it would be cind of the same, they have awesome memory and if they forget, just ask the guy down the street"Hey, what did that one guy do, that one time?" Or "What did the paster say on this subject?"

Also, when the gosples(My main example... yes) were written doun, they were written doun with such feverd speed that... as i said... 5000 historical documents in original greek, the easyest to write stuff down in, for explisit reasons. All 5000 of these documents corospond, making deluding of the bible even less posible. As for the old testimant... The jews think the older you are, the cooler you are. When they do a wedding seremony,for example, they say somthing about "This is a ceremony of 2000 years length" Or somthing. Also, they read stuff in ORIGINAL HEBREW, so deluding stuff apon translation is imposible with jewish stuff(hence, the old testemant.)

Also, it was posible for adam to write Genesis. but it counts apon a MAJOR IF. IF the world is as old as people say it is, then Adam could have.
After many excavations in the Middle East, archaeologists have found Ancient writings called "cuneiform" writings that date back all the way to 3500 B.C. Adam was still alive at that time, and so writing could have gone back even farther. So Adam could have composed his EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT OF CREATION!

Also frome that site

. Many people are starting to realize that Moses DID NOT plagiarize these accounts of creation, and the flood. In stead there is evidence that Moses took the earlier documents of Adam, Noah, Abraham Enoch Isaac, and Jacob, these documents that were passed on from one generation to the next, and put them together into one book called the BOOK OF GENESIS!

(This is pie.. and i say... i will skip a bit of informtion)
It may be a surprise to some people, but the reference to writing is found in Genesis 5:1 which says: "This is the book of the generations of Adam." This suggests that the that art of writing was known within the lifetime of Adam, which could make writing as old as the human race itself!

The sigt is here: http://www.british-israel.ca/Genesis.htm

Yes, I am good at dealing with topics that need actual proof(The one i just smotherd in humble pie) And stan is good at dealing with topics that don't need proff(Scicoligisticly prooving the bible)[/quote]

[formerly known as hf]

?