The Crusades
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I completely agree with Stan except for two things: Adam and Eve weren't listening to themselves, they were listening to Satan. The same is true for all of us, it just seems different because Satan and his servants have gotten under our skin.
And second, we do have prophets again. Which scares me, because, to be cliche, THE END IS COMING!!! And no, I don't think George Bush is a prophet.
Now, seeing as I've decided to step out of anonymity and declare myself Mormon, I'll add that a lot of things have been changed in the Bible through Joseph Smith. If you don't believe this, the point is obviously moot, but there's little I can do about that. I don't have the Bible on me right now, but I'll have to see if the verses changed in the JS translation.
As for George Bush declaring a "holy war" of sorts on Iraq, it's because he's desperate. He went into that war to take out an insane and evil dictator, but people don't support him, so he's trying to win over Christianity. This is a mistake. Of course, I could be wrong. I can't read George Bush's mind, but that's my guess.
Back to the Crusades, I think the First Crusade was a noble little effort on the part of Count Raymond of France. He constantly attempted to honor oaths, be selfless, and make the First Crusade what it was supposed to be: an armed pilgrimage.
The aboriginal (spelling?) crusades turned it into a holy war, and it was never as pure in its intent again. You could be a respectable footmen who's just trying to get to the Holy Sepulcher in the 1100's. That's not true after the heretic crusades, in which crusades were declared on a small but growing christian splinter group. Said splinter group never recovered.
And second, we do have prophets again. Which scares me, because, to be cliche, THE END IS COMING!!! And no, I don't think George Bush is a prophet.
Now, seeing as I've decided to step out of anonymity and declare myself Mormon, I'll add that a lot of things have been changed in the Bible through Joseph Smith. If you don't believe this, the point is obviously moot, but there's little I can do about that. I don't have the Bible on me right now, but I'll have to see if the verses changed in the JS translation.
As for George Bush declaring a "holy war" of sorts on Iraq, it's because he's desperate. He went into that war to take out an insane and evil dictator, but people don't support him, so he's trying to win over Christianity. This is a mistake. Of course, I could be wrong. I can't read George Bush's mind, but that's my guess.
Back to the Crusades, I think the First Crusade was a noble little effort on the part of Count Raymond of France. He constantly attempted to honor oaths, be selfless, and make the First Crusade what it was supposed to be: an armed pilgrimage.
The aboriginal (spelling?) crusades turned it into a holy war, and it was never as pure in its intent again. You could be a respectable footmen who's just trying to get to the Holy Sepulcher in the 1100's. That's not true after the heretic crusades, in which crusades were declared on a small but growing christian splinter group. Said splinter group never recovered.
- Stan
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First, I want to say, I knew it! I wasn't off base when I mentioned that bit about the Jewish Carpenter on another forum...anyway.
I agree Satan lied to them, but it was ultimately their weakness that led them to do what God had told them not to do.
I can't say I know much about Joseph Smith or his translations. I should clarify, I don't know if there are prophets today. If there are they will declare themselves as such. Pat Robertson hasn't done that.
Jesus said he will come back like a thief in the night and that even he doesn't know the hour or the day. So, I'm skeptical when someone says these are the end times. Jesus didn't know nor does any man. I hope he comes now for my sake, but not for the sake of others.
I agree Satan lied to them, but it was ultimately their weakness that led them to do what God had told them not to do.
I can't say I know much about Joseph Smith or his translations. I should clarify, I don't know if there are prophets today. If there are they will declare themselves as such. Pat Robertson hasn't done that.
Jesus said he will come back like a thief in the night and that even he doesn't know the hour or the day. So, I'm skeptical when someone says these are the end times. Jesus didn't know nor does any man. I hope he comes now for my sake, but not for the sake of others.
Stan wrote:I've never said anything worth quoting.
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At the risk of carrying the tangent too far away from the original topic:
- I have a great respect for the perspective that acknowledges that there are a plethora of belief systems, and accept that each belief system is valid for the believer, that it works for their way of life. That no one system is better or more "true" than another, but might be better for an individual on a personal level, while not invalidating any of the others.
- I have no respect for the perspective that an individual's specific belief system is the only valid one for anyone, and that all other belief systems are invalid, incorrect, or untrue. It is elitist, myopic, and self-righteous.
Beatings will continue until morale improves!!
- Pie
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Thats what evolution does. Science.. and evolutuin in part try all the time to disprove religion by giving the power onto nature, and away frome the god's... I'm pretty shure all gods today are considerd guys.. who knows.......
As for Nalarius being morman.... Dude..... So many things in the bible say that mormans do things that shouldn't be done. Like, changing the bible on purpos fore one..... Taking a secrit oath, and I'm pretty shure there are others.
I also have to say, thank you stan, and others for helping my side of the argument when I was at school and probably sleeping in math clas............
As for Nalarius being morman.... Dude..... So many things in the bible say that mormans do things that shouldn't be done. Like, changing the bible on purpos fore one..... Taking a secrit oath, and I'm pretty shure there are others.
I also have to say, thank you stan, and others for helping my side of the argument when I was at school and probably sleeping in math clas............
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- Stan
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chadpants wrote:I have no respect for the perspective that an individual's specific belief system is the only valid one for anyone, and that all other belief systems are invalid, incorrect, or untrue. It is elitist, myopic, and self-righteous.
At the risk of sounding myopic and elitist I think you are dead wrong on this particular subject.
Either agree or disagree with Christianity. Get some balls and take a stand. To play middle ground and say everything is correct is repugnant.
Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Atheism, Judaism...none of them accept your explanation that everything is ok. It's a ridiculous theory.
I am either right or I am wrong. I'm willing to accept that so don't be condescending to me and other people of faith.
Jesus Christ said he was God. He was either lying, or he was crazy or he is Lord. There is no other option. If He was Lord then what he said is true. If was either of the other options then you'd be well advised to ignore it all.
If there was another way to Heaven Jesus would not have endured what He endured. There is no other way...unless I'm completely wrong.
Stan wrote:I've never said anything worth quoting.
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Stan wrote:Either agree or disagree with Christianity. Get some balls and take a stand. To play middle ground and say everything is correct is repugnant.
To begin with, I agree with some of the tenets of Christianity and I disagree with other aspects of it. If finding kernels of truth and dismissible aspects of any and all religions means I have no balls, so be it... I can live with the masogynistic implications of that statement.
Nonetheless, I never said "everything is correct". Let me try to clarify:
You are a Christian, correct? If you find that being a Christian has enriched your life, I say more power to you. I give a thumbs-up to anything that can provide people with strength and purpose, whatever that is. So now say "John Somebody" is Hindu. If he finds that belief system enriches his life and provides him with strength and purpose, more power to him.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how faith works. Maybe what make it work so well is by saying "I'm right and everyone else is wrong". I just can't do that, so I exercise the option of questioning and exploring, with eyes of wonder and curiosity. For me, not everything is black and white. Not everything can be put into a neat little box with a shiny label. You are right... for you. Joe Somebody is right... for Joe Somebody. My belief system works perfectly for me, and I would never ask you or anyone else to adopt it. Each person's belief system works perfectly for themselves. Hopefully they don't try to convince the world that we should all have the same belief system.
~ball-less
Beatings will continue until morale improves!!
- Stan
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Sorry to be course about it.
Anyway, I understand the meaning of "gives meaning to your life", etc. I won't argue that point. But, surely you see that the basic tenets of the major religions are that they provide the way to salvation and that there is no other way. So for a person to attribute "correctness" to all of them is not logical.
I would also argue that just because something is satisfying to someone doesn't mean it is accurate. For instance, someone may believe they were reincarnated. That belief is either true or it isn't, period. It isn't a matter of perspective.
I realize that this may sound over the top to you. But, I didn't write it. I only believe it.
Anyway, I understand the meaning of "gives meaning to your life", etc. I won't argue that point. But, surely you see that the basic tenets of the major religions are that they provide the way to salvation and that there is no other way. So for a person to attribute "correctness" to all of them is not logical.
I would also argue that just because something is satisfying to someone doesn't mean it is accurate. For instance, someone may believe they were reincarnated. That belief is either true or it isn't, period. It isn't a matter of perspective.
I realize that this may sound over the top to you. But, I didn't write it. I only believe it.
Stan wrote:I've never said anything worth quoting.
- formerly known as hf
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You ignorance of both science and other religions is disgusting pie.Pie wrote:Thats what evolution does. Science.. and evolutuin in part try all the time to disprove religion by giving the power onto nature, and away frome the god's... I'm pretty shure all gods today are considerd guys.. who knows.......
Scientist do not want to hand 'power' to any form of deity, mother nature or not. It may be conducive to describe certain forces in those terms, but they certainly do not try to form any kind of new supra-natural power.
As for all Gods being men. You seem to have forgotten the millions of Hindus out there. Not to mention the numerous indigenous religions on South America and Africa still practised by many people.
Whoever you vote for.
The government wins.
The government wins.
- Pirate Lass
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There can only be one God, because He contantly tells us that He's the only one. So if He exists, no one else does. And I believe He exists. If you don't, that's your life.
Yes, Pie, your lack of insight into science and religions as a whole is disturbing.
I believe that Science, Evolution, etc. aren't things that prove that God doesn't exist, but rather evidence of his works. He made science, he made the dinosaurs and wiped them out. Who knows how much time elapsed between the creation of the world and Adam and Eve? "Days" were hardly set in stone then. It could've been dozens of millenia to one "day". It all depends on how God keeps track of time, how we kept track of time way back before we were born.
Jesus Christ never said he was God, by the way, not that I know of. He only said that they were "One in mind" or something like that, meaning they both strived for the same purpose, and they both did it flawlessly. Whether or not you want to believe that is, again, your life.
Yes, Pie, your lack of insight into science and religions as a whole is disturbing.
I believe that Science, Evolution, etc. aren't things that prove that God doesn't exist, but rather evidence of his works. He made science, he made the dinosaurs and wiped them out. Who knows how much time elapsed between the creation of the world and Adam and Eve? "Days" were hardly set in stone then. It could've been dozens of millenia to one "day". It all depends on how God keeps track of time, how we kept track of time way back before we were born.
Jesus Christ never said he was God, by the way, not that I know of. He only said that they were "One in mind" or something like that, meaning they both strived for the same purpose, and they both did it flawlessly. Whether or not you want to believe that is, again, your life.
- Pie
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OK, i was going to say somthing.. but i messed up and what i was going to say was lost and i have to retype this for the 3 TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!~
#1 if what you say about his perseption of time is true.. than noa was in the ark for 40 milion years. Jona in the wail for 3 milion years. The isrealites marching around jereco for 7 milion years. And COUNTLES OTHER time things in the bible.
#2 actually, jesus said that he was the "Son of man" Witch is a claim to divinity. "The sone of man" Is refuring to god, coming doun in the form of "The son of man". Also, it is in the profisy of the mesia, that the messia would be "The son of man".
There is NOO POSIBLE WAY to agree with Athyisom and Christianaty.
And pirat lass, i was meaning that to be that most gods can be refferd to as gods, without having to add goddes... becous god can mean both. but then i said the guy thing.. 'cous I'm pie.
Puts your argument doun.
H.F....... Yes, science does. It wants to hand the power away frome any diaty(At least Yawe(God)) and hand it ofer to some natural occerance, thus making god powerless, and all of the power to the PEOPLE. They have only themselves to fear, and they need not fear any diaty, 'cous now they can PARTAAAAAY!!!!!



#1 if what you say about his perseption of time is true.. than noa was in the ark for 40 milion years. Jona in the wail for 3 milion years. The isrealites marching around jereco for 7 milion years. And COUNTLES OTHER time things in the bible.
#2 actually, jesus said that he was the "Son of man" Witch is a claim to divinity. "The sone of man" Is refuring to god, coming doun in the form of "The son of man". Also, it is in the profisy of the mesia, that the messia would be "The son of man".
There is NOO POSIBLE WAY to agree with Athyisom and Christianaty.
And pirat lass, i was meaning that to be that most gods can be refferd to as gods, without having to add goddes... becous god can mean both. but then i said the guy thing.. 'cous I'm pie.
Puts your argument doun.
H.F....... Yes, science does. It wants to hand the power away frome any diaty(At least Yawe(God)) and hand it ofer to some natural occerance, thus making god powerless, and all of the power to the PEOPLE. They have only themselves to fear, and they need not fear any diaty, 'cous now they can PARTAAAAAY!!!!!
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- formerly known as hf
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You kinda got it right -s cience hands back the power to the people, not to some natural deity of any kind. In fact, rather than handing it to the people, it removes the possibility of their being any kind of over-arching power, thus giving control of lives back to the people who live those lives.
A situation I am much more comfortable with than the thought that some genocidal, narcisistic, schizophrenic, sexist, racist, homophobic, slave trading, child abusing maniac (i.e: God) is pulling all the strings
A situation I am much more comfortable with than the thought that some genocidal, narcisistic, schizophrenic, sexist, racist, homophobic, slave trading, child abusing maniac (i.e: God) is pulling all the strings
Whoever you vote for.
The government wins.
The government wins.
- Pie
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Genoside: In the old testemant, still Eye for an eye
Narcistic: He not only THOUGHT he was god, but GOD PROVED IT. AND
JESUS DID TO.
Schisofrenic: Eh? Example pleas.
Sexist: Did the bible promote that? Old testemant?(Old testiment dosent matter) Did JESUS promote that?
Racist: Not reaciset. Don't know of any of that. Pleas inform me.
Slave trading: COMPLEATLY RONG!!! HAH!!!! Back in those time, there was somthing called the SBATH. In isreal you are realeased every 7 years. Also, slavery wasn't that bad. It isn't like the isrealites were in Egypt. You became a slave if you were in debt or if you sold yourself. Also, what is RONG ABOUT SLAVERY Is that, IN MODERN TIMES SLAVES WERE RELATED TO BLACK PEOPLE. That was wat is rong with slavery.
Chiald abusing maniak: Natural couses. there are natural and supernatural couses. Sometimes a tree fals.. Wasn't gods fault. Natural and supernatural. Also, Punishing the isrealites for Disobaying him. BLATENTLY DISOBAYING HIM. If there is somthing els i missed, pleas inform me.
Just cut yalls strings.
Narcistic: He not only THOUGHT he was god, but GOD PROVED IT. AND
JESUS DID TO.
Schisofrenic: Eh? Example pleas.
Sexist: Did the bible promote that? Old testemant?(Old testiment dosent matter) Did JESUS promote that?
Racist: Not reaciset. Don't know of any of that. Pleas inform me.
Slave trading: COMPLEATLY RONG!!! HAH!!!! Back in those time, there was somthing called the SBATH. In isreal you are realeased every 7 years. Also, slavery wasn't that bad. It isn't like the isrealites were in Egypt. You became a slave if you were in debt or if you sold yourself. Also, what is RONG ABOUT SLAVERY Is that, IN MODERN TIMES SLAVES WERE RELATED TO BLACK PEOPLE. That was wat is rong with slavery.
Chiald abusing maniak: Natural couses. there are natural and supernatural couses. Sometimes a tree fals.. Wasn't gods fault. Natural and supernatural. Also, Punishing the isrealites for Disobaying him. BLATENTLY DISOBAYING HIM. If there is somthing els i missed, pleas inform me.
Just cut yalls strings.
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- Stan
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HF, it really isn't about what you're comfortable with. Not to sound like an ass, but it really doesn't. Even if I'm wrong the truth has nothing to do with what you're comfortable with.
If you are right, you are right. If you are wrong you are wrong. It has nothing to do with your feelings.
But, you base your belief system on something you've made up. You don't even have a doctrine to live by. It's much easier to not make mistakes if there is no "right way".
You seem to be more of a standup guy to me. But, your approach on this issue seems like a cop out.
Like I've said on another post, there's one way to heaven. I didn't make it up, God said it. He said it clearly. "No one come to the Father except through me." You believe it or you don't. If you don't then you have no idea what will happen to you if you die today.
I just want to leave one more thing with you. You may go through life and never care what I said or never believe in God or Jesus. But if you ever change your mind it is a simple process. You've heard it a million times (now I feel like a TV evangelist), but all you have to do is ask God.
This goes for any human being.
You just have to say you've fallen short of His rules. You accept that Jesus was His son who died for your shortcoming and you accept the free gift of His forgiveness and the eternal life with Him.
Sounds way too simple. I think if a man would have invented it he would have added a bunch of other crap, but God didn't. He made it easy.
The other part is something you will say is horse crap until you've asked God for the above, but the moment you do you will feel (I mean literally feel) a change in your body and you will have a different understanding. That's one of the reasons I know it to be true. Deal is, though, you have to believe in it. Otherwise, it won't do any good.
Then, at the moment your eyes close on this world, you won't have fear. You won't be headed toward an eternity to an unknown hell. You'll be headed to a better place.
If you are right, you are right. If you are wrong you are wrong. It has nothing to do with your feelings.
But, you base your belief system on something you've made up. You don't even have a doctrine to live by. It's much easier to not make mistakes if there is no "right way".
You seem to be more of a standup guy to me. But, your approach on this issue seems like a cop out.
Like I've said on another post, there's one way to heaven. I didn't make it up, God said it. He said it clearly. "No one come to the Father except through me." You believe it or you don't. If you don't then you have no idea what will happen to you if you die today.
I just want to leave one more thing with you. You may go through life and never care what I said or never believe in God or Jesus. But if you ever change your mind it is a simple process. You've heard it a million times (now I feel like a TV evangelist), but all you have to do is ask God.
This goes for any human being.
You just have to say you've fallen short of His rules. You accept that Jesus was His son who died for your shortcoming and you accept the free gift of His forgiveness and the eternal life with Him.
Sounds way too simple. I think if a man would have invented it he would have added a bunch of other crap, but God didn't. He made it easy.
The other part is something you will say is horse crap until you've asked God for the above, but the moment you do you will feel (I mean literally feel) a change in your body and you will have a different understanding. That's one of the reasons I know it to be true. Deal is, though, you have to believe in it. Otherwise, it won't do any good.
Then, at the moment your eyes close on this world, you won't have fear. You won't be headed toward an eternity to an unknown hell. You'll be headed to a better place.
Stan wrote:I've never said anything worth quoting.
- Pie
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Whoa. You DO sound like a T.V. evangilist.
But debaiting is good to.. right? I mean... right? What about what i said? Did it have anything good in it? I know i proved the reason god wasn't against slavery(At least the slavery that ended on the sabath and wasn't a racial slavery)
But debaiting is good to.. right? I mean... right? What about what i said? Did it have anything good in it? I know i proved the reason god wasn't against slavery(At least the slavery that ended on the sabath and wasn't a racial slavery)
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