English?!

[T-shirt]

1. When a proper dictionary is made, then how many words should it consist of to allow characters "learn" a new language using it ? E.g. There are 30 word translated in the dictionary. Can characters speak the entire new language using this dictionary or can they only use these words which are in dictionary (so only these 30) ?

You can't learn a language from a dictionary. You can learn words and thus understand some words used in a sentence. You could learn more words by further communication.

2. How can any dictionary be made if no character understand the other's language ? The only way of making one would be pointing at things and giving their names but you can't point out everything.

When a french speaking person - for example - says 'Tu es un imbécile' to you, you might understand that he might have meant to communicate 'You are an imbecile' to you, even though you do not know the words tu, es and un and you have not been taught that imbécile (fr) is the same as imbecile (en). So if there are words pretty similar or used often, it's not hard to learn their meaning.

[Lumin]

2. How can any dictionary be made if no character understand the other's language ? The only way of making one would be pointing at things and giving their names but you can't point out everything.

Emotes would probably be a big part of that. You don't have to actually have a 'point' button to point at something, and there are words for intangible things you can't teach that way anyway. Though you don't really need to know all that much to have basic communication in Cantr. Trading, for instance, can be done entirely through sign language (and often was in real life...possibly still is in certain areas of the world).

[Nick]

But more than likely, many of them are compiled with OOC information. With the dictionary in question I have little doubt.

[Pieter de Groote]

I don't get it. What's the purpose of this discussion?

- Should the dictionary be removed because Nick finds it hard to believe it's been created without OOC knowledge?
- Should the logs be viewed to see if the dictionary is a CRB?
- Should other player's characters refrain from using it, because Nick's convinced it's a CRB?

So far, this post is getting us nowhere. There need to be some actual arguments and facts about origin and contents of the dictionary, if the excistence or use of the dictionary is debated. Characters that find a dictionary should not have to wonder if the dictionary can be used or not. If it's available IC, it's there for them to use. That can never be a CRB. If the dictionary is a CRB, remove it.
So far, I haven't heard any evidence (or even a strong indication) that the dictionary is a CRB.

[T-shirt]

I think Nick was focussing on the first purpose.

[Nick]

No anglos have visited other worlds. No dictionary was formed.
I've seen tons of Dutch places have english named boats or buildings, or speak english.
I think there is a small (~5-10%) chance that this is legitimate. But people have been banned on less certainty than this.
Remove the note, don't let in game culture be tainted by 'oh, it could be real.. possibly'

[T-shirt]

Please do ban the people who named those boats and buildings in the 700s to 900s. A bit late to do that. And do ban people who are 5% or less likely to have illegitimately made dictionaries around the same time. My characters have been around from around 1000 and none of my characters have seen a dictionary been 'published'. They are there already.

[Nick]

I didn't suggest any banning. I'd rather see the note erradicated and future cheating like this prevented beforehand.
Back in the days when it was quite sure the two main islands didnt communicate, any map with information about the other island was eliminated. That's how we did. Maybe the PD doesn't pay attention to this area, or maybe it's because no PD members speak these languages.

Either way, I don't see why you're defending this.

[Junesun]

The case of English-speaking characters visiting the Dutch and the German areas has been brought up before and Jos traced an English ship to the coast of those islands, so the areas have been in contact once and the dictionary was probably created at that time.

However, there are some people who definitely know too much English in those regions and I hate Dutch or German characters assuming that my French character will understand them if they speak English.

[Nick]

However, there are some people who definitely know too much English in those regions and I hate Dutch or German characters assuming that my French character will understand them if they speak English.

I've encountered this many times which is why I assumed these dictionaries were ill founded.

[EchoMan]

Maybe we should have a separate sticky thread somewhere, just for posting first contacts between "cultures" (or rather language groups)?

[Hellzon]

That and, French, English, and Dutch don't exist in game, as netiher does France, England, or the Netherlands. I cringe when I see those words mentioned.

Seriously. I can understand you not liking the countries being mentioned, but the languages? There might be legitimate reason to use those words, such as someone working out enough of a foreign language to ask what they call it. The language spoken in the English region is called "english", just as the stuff we build houses and roads with is called "stone".
Certainly not cringe-worthy IMHO, but YMMV.

And seconding EchoMan's suggestion. Nice idea.

[Nick]

I've known of several different occasions where words other than those are listed.
That and, the French have always called themselves either Kwats, from one town, or Romovais, from another.
If the Dutch had asked one of us and we said Francais, well, that would be understandable.
However, it's highly likely that the Dutch just put them as French because of OOC info.
You can be more creative than that. Languages don't have to be called their RL equivalents.

[EchoMan]

And 'Languages' doesn't have to be called 'Languages' but can be called 'Yttebnbbsh'. Just because everything in a diffferent area is out of the original language (yttebnbbsh) doesn't mean every word has to be changed.

Languages have history, and I could give you a number of swedish words that's "inherited" from both english and french. You'd be surprised how much Swedish you really know.

Edit: Point is: Just because the game was written in english, why would english speaking characters have an advantage over everyone else?

[Hellzon]

You'd be surprised how much Swedish you really know.

In that vein, I think us Swedes can usually make a good guess at Dutch words, despite not actually knowing Dutch.
Basically, it gets hairy with English, because (likely) 99,9% of the players in this game know that language OOC. But guessing, if/when the Swedes and the Dutch bump into each other, should be OK, right? With potentially humorous results. (I'm expecting not everyone will agree with me. Nyah to them. )

And I stay my ground on the "what do we call English"-case. If the Kwats decide to call their language "Kwatian", good for them. But I wouldn't call it bad if they call it "French". See my arument about "stone" above.