Use of event logs to record events IC

[Doug R.]

This was brought up in the annoyance thread, but I thought it deserved a new one.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I read a new note as evidence in a trial of sorts that just made me angry. The player copied everything from their events page and pasted it into the note. My character almost ridiculed that character except there was a line saying to read from the bottom up. That's just lazy. And irritating. Irritatingly lazy. Evil or Very Mad

-El_Skwidd

Unfortunately stuff like that happens all over. People think that events can only be trusted if they are copied straight from the events page unaltered - and that's sort of a CRB since it's like a video film instead of a story. Your character couldn't possibly remember all the details.

-SekoETC

I want to say that I DON'T think events put forth in a transcript format are any more trustworthy than events relayed in any other manner. However, SekoETC's comment that character's couldn't possibly remember all the details is plain wrong. They can, and the proof is right in front of you. Cantrians have an amazing gift in that they have perfect photographic memories of every event that has ever happened to them. This memory has short and long term components. The short term is what is immediately available in your events log, and your long term memory is what is available in your emailed event logs. This memory is a game feature, and for people to dismiss it's use as "impossible" or, even worse, ridiculing those who use it, is just misguided. If Jos's intent was to make Cantrians remember like Humans, the events list would disappear after it was viewed.

If you wish to handicap yourself by not utilizing this amazing ability of your characters, that is your role-playing perogative, but please do not ridicule others who do.

[Nick]

Well that's a good argument against Seko's point, and I'd agree.
But the point of the topic is people who paste it directly from the logs, and considering it proof.

[Doug R.]

That might have been the point of the last thread, but this is a new thread, with a new title.

[Nick]

So it is. Point taken.

[Wolf]

I read that report too, and I know the char that wrote it.
I know how it was written.
Hint: Yup, it was one of my chars.
It was written on the go, and left editable, adding to it as things happened.
So, it wasn't simply copied from the screen in one go.
It started off with a different title when that character spawned, with a desire to keep her own journal.
Lazy?
El_Skwid assumed it was simply copied in one go, here in the Netherlands we have a saying about such assumptions:
"Zoals de waard is, vertrouwt hij zijn klanten"
The saying means, that those who think people are lazy, or who assume other negative things about people, are usually doing so because they think that others are just as they themselves are.

El_Skwid, saying his char almost ridiculed mine... I know that char as well.
He was accused of rape, and his actions after I heard of that, definitely pointed towards it.
He kept changing his story, kept attacking the victim, tried to intimidate my char and others...
And on another related note; The char being accused in the report my char was writing, didn't know how my report was written when I told him that I was keeping a record of things, but he was the first one to speak of his own record being so exact, that one would have to assume it could only be an exact copy of his events screen as well.

Seko brings up how it's a CRB, well, the character who was accused of the rape, made a few OOC remarks about the player of the victim, about how it's people like that player who ruined the game.
And that player (playing the char accused of rape) also made other OOC remarks, towards another character, which seemed to accuse the victim and the other char he addressed of being the same player.

As for HOW the report was written... if we can live with chars who speak like "Me bash rabbit" but are still somehow intelligent enough to build large stone buildings and motorized vehicles, then we can also live with some chars who write things into journals in a more elaborate, exact way.
Several of my chars found maps and notes on travelling, written by some established characters, which also copied things straight from the events list... yet nobody seems to have issues with that.
I'm glad this thread was started, because the title of this thread was more specific... it pointed out something which could be a serious issue, so I read it... and see it mentions a report written by one of my chars.

Annoyance thread, that is a name I wouldn't be drawn to, because it would seem too general (everyone has other things that annoy them, so I usually assume such threads to be too long-winded and not to contain much useful info).
But as it is now, it seems I should at least take a look there... heh...

** Edit:
Edited a line where I wrote "you", instead of pointing the person who was being quoted.
Edited two typo's.
Expanded on one line to make an example more precise.

[Doug R.]

Just to focus this a bit; the point is that how can something provided as a feature possibly be thought of as wrong to use in game? If SekoETC, someone whom I respect, thinks that using unaltered copies of the events list is "sort of a CRB," then there have to be many more players out there that believe this, and this thread is my attempt to dispell that belief.

As for HOW the report was written... if we can live with chars who speak like "Me bash rabbit" but are still somehow intelligent enough to build large stone buildings and motorized vehicles, then we can also live with some chars who write things into journals in a more elaborate, exact way.
Several of my chars found maps and notes on travelling, written by some established characters, which also copied things straight from the events list... yet nobody seems to have issues with that.

If we could focus the discussion on the quote above and ignore the rest of what Wolf wrote, I feel this can be a productive topic. While I'm sure your IC situation was dramatic, and while I'm sure hypocrasy is rampant in a game like this, I don't think that's pertinant to what I'm trying to discuss here.

(In case it isn't obvious, this issue touched a nerve)

[chadpants]

I'm not a big fan of the "Project (date) on the ground" cut and paste announcement myself, but if people want to use it, that's fine. If people want to take it as gospel because it appears as it was cut and pasted from an event log, be my guest. My rather dishonest character has taken advantage of this many times, changing the number to make it appear like less material hit the ground.

I never trust a log when people decide to use it as proof of anything. There's no watermark to indicate that it's never been altered. The only thing that all players know as a fact is anything that everyone can all see at once.

And as far as the whole notion of memory... I have no issue with using logs to remember things. A log is representative of a Cantrian character's memory, and as far as I'm concerned, Cantrians can remember things as far back as the players keep their logs. Personally, I never keep them. It makes the game more interesting for me when my characters remember only as much as I do.

[Shaderon]

I agree that a character should be able to remember whatever we want them to, mainly because they aren't human and know instinctively(?) what to do with bones, hide, meat etc without being told and given the right parts can build a mini Van after a very short time (I know most mechanics can't build a mini van from scratch - and some can't even fix cars ) so why can't they have photographic memories as an inherant talent?

BUT...

I don't agree with copy and pasting into the note field, the layout of the events is OOC for remembering, I certainly don't remember details in that way e.g. if I'm concentrating on a certain conversation I don't remember the guy collecting wood dropping some bones and HIS conversation with someone else at the same time. What I think people should do, and remember this is in general and not pointed at anyone in particular, is copy and paste into MS Notepad (yes the out of game thing on your computer ) and edit it into a set of memories then paste that into the IN game notes. It's more likely to be taken seriously by characters than a set of notes made by some unseen force.

[Doug R.]

I certainly don't remember details in that way e.g. if I'm concentrating on a certain conversation I don't remember the guy collecting wood dropping some bones and HIS conversation with someone else at the same time.

But your characters do. I thought the thread discussing if Cantrians had six arms, kangaroo pouches, and livied in miniature buildings lighter than they weigh pretty much destroyed the concept of applying Human perspective to your Cantr characters.

I guess you can say that I'm a Cantr literalist. What is on my screen is my reality. When I see people talk, I see the time they spoke. Everyone looks the same when they spawn, and I can mystically apply a name to them. While I personally think that it would be beneficial if everyone adopted a human perspective on Cantr (so characters could have hair, two arms, two legs, and no built in utility belts), until that perspective is officially endorsed, being a Cantr literalist is a valid position.

[Shaderon]

Very true... I must admit you do have a point there.

It's a difficult one that then, does an event log consititute evidence? *thinks*

Well I think the answer is no, the character themselves could forge the event log, if you look at it in a literalists POV, they can forge their own memories. However the character remembers things, and we all have very different memory talents, they can still lie.

Acceptability of cutting and pasting the event log? I think still no, I don't see the Cantrians as memorising everything in that format but if you do, then fair enough. It's just my opinion.

[formerly known as hf]

Just in case anyone is interested where this discussion has gone before:
copy/paste conversation
Information Line Documenting

It's generally agreed that you'd be stupid IC to take any form of events page copy/pasting as proof - simply because it can easily be faked...

It's also generally agreed that it's fairly sloppy and annoying to see people c/p.ing the events page - it's just plain lazy...

As for 'can characters really remember things in that much details' - clearly they can (wether you RP that intense recollection is down to the player) - they can remember characters... 40 years later even if they only saw them very briefly...

But the events page syntax just looks unnatural when used in a note...

[Doug R.]

It's generally agreed that you'd be stupid IC to take any form of events page copy/pasting as proof - simply because it can easily be faked...

Yes, I think we can all agree on that.

It's also generally agreed that it's fairly sloppy and annoying to see people c/p.ing the events page - it's just plain lazy... But the events page syntax just looks unnatural when used in a note...

Let me go out on a limb here and argue that what constitues a Cantr note is not actually the scrap of paper that humans associate with a note. When I look at a human note, I see what is there (excepting invisible ink). When I look at a Cantr note, what you see is not what is there. If the "gods" can give me a magical gibberish line that makes my notes into pretty pictures, why can't a note magically transfer another character's memories into the eyes of another? A direct analogy is the pensieve in Harry Potter. You pop your memories out into the pensieve, and then you can view them as if you were there first hand. So, if you look at it like that, the reason it looks unnatural when viewed as a note is because you are reading the note, instead of "living" the note.

[formerly known as hf]

it's still lazy

[Oasis]

Perhaps lazy for someone who has the time to always rewrite everything in their own words, for all 15 chars, and doesn't have a real life.

I don't have the time. Yes, I'm one who copies events into notes, as is, bottoms up. I'd love to have the time to do it differently, but I don't. That's not being lazy. And I am never upset when I see other notes made this way. It is the norm, as far as my experience goes.

[Agar]

If anyone checks any of Solace's old notes on Reniov Mountain, they'll find an old forgery I'd made to protect a woman who claimed to be running from a homicidal husband. It had different pieces of actual events and false locations laced into it to send him barreling down the wrong path.

Of course ... she was delusional and didn't have any husband at all ... but still.

Everything can be faked. Notes can be copied, even without picking the note up. Events can be made up. Seals on envelopes can be faked and/or opened at will (although that has been ruled a CRB as it's exploiting a problem they haven't been able to fix, last I'd heard)

Should be claiming IC that the c/p text is proof positive be a CRB? It's a place where older players can exploit the inexperience of newer players to cheat and steal, because of the apparent way the game works.

Recording the stuff down is just bad form, but I do it all the time too. I just don't go around quoting it as the law from on high and irrufutable proof.