What is it with forests?

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Savanik
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What is it with forests?

Postby Savanik » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:41 am

Why do forests have all the cool resources? :) It seems that at least in some parts of Cantr, I can't help but trip over forests with hematite, and sometimes even rubber and copper. Oh, and wood, of course.

I can understand wood and rubber. But what are all these forests doing with huge ore deposits? Shouldn't those be in... the mountains? The only thing forests lack is food - and with plenty of iron and steel for weapons...

Sav
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nitefyre
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Postby nitefyre » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:54 pm

If you've got plenty of wood and steel weapons, you certainly won't have much of a problem acquiring food, either from your neighbors or the less talkative inhabitants.

My wise old self decided to settle a forest that had nothing but wood.
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Sunni Daez
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Postby Sunni Daez » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:44 pm

Yea Nite...me too.....nuttin but wooooooood
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Ahoyhoy
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Postby Ahoyhoy » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:07 am

Some forests have berries which are food.
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Spider
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Postby Spider » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:41 am

If you don't like the common forest, go ahead and visit Kwor Forest :)
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Agar
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Postby Agar » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:17 am

You mean the Kwor "Collection of Shrubberies bearing berries"

:wink: :lol:
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Schme
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Postby Schme » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:11 am

Rubber comes from trees, and trees very very often grow on highly concentrated mineral type soil, like the kind with copper in it.
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AoM
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Postby AoM » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:55 am

No no no... Kwor Forest has trees... they're just shiny and made out of a useless substance called "chromium." :)
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Savanik
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Postby Savanik » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:06 pm

So, to beat a somewhat dead point...

There are some forests which contain Copper, Rubber and (of course) Wood... making them natural places to build radios. There's even a couple that have all of the above - PLUS IRON for the tools you need to build them. *thumps head on desk*

I don't know, maybe I'm just sitting here thinking valuable resources should be less common than they are. It seems like you can't walk two roads without tripping over iron deposits. In a forest. Instead of in mountains.

Oh, and as a side note - while trees do often grow in more 'mineral' rich soil, the fact is - it's SOIL. It's not in a very usable form unless you have lots of chemicals to extract it from the dirt its mixed in with. :) The ores and such are found in mountains - and usually have to be mined and tunneled for, to find their most concentrated, usable form.

But again, that's real world logic, and not Cantr logic, where we have sabres and motorcycles and no horses. :lol: And now radios.

Sav
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:14 pm

Don't forget that a lot of the mining on our planet is done in forests - huge tracts of rainforest are dessimated by being cut down, then blasted with chemicals to erode away and get at the ores. The chemicals then get into the rivers, killing whole villages of people, not to mention destroying the ecosystem

It seems somewhat more ecologically friendly in Cantr, although concepts of 'sustainability' are forced upon characters via resource gathering limits which are hard coded, rather than ecological damage as an incentive to reduce gathering (which could, as in RL, be ignored)

Either way, mineral and ore deposits being often found in forests is actually somewhat a reflection of RL circumstances
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Jos Elkink
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Postby Jos Elkink » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:23 pm

Yeah, we should have more ecological problems in Cantr ... life is too easy in Cantr now, isn't it?



::hides::
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Savanik
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Postby Savanik » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:42 pm

hallucinatingfarmer wrote:Don't forget that a lot of the mining on our planet is done in forests - huge tracts of rainforest are dessimated by being cut down, then blasted with chemicals to erode away and get at the ores. The chemicals then get into the rivers, killing whole villages of people, not to mention destroying the ecosystem


Derrrr, what? Source, please. I've never heard of anything remotely like this, and I imagine whole villages getting poisoned by mining offruns would be international news. Last I checked, jungles were being chopped down by poor farmers that don't know about crop rotation.

I haven't heard of mining as a cause of deforestation, other than in the most general terms from less-than-credible sources such as the Rain Forest Action Network, without any supporting evidence for their claims.

Sav
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:27 pm

Ok...

I'll first of all admit that whole villages is somewhat of an exaggeration - although villages getting wiped out by mutlinationals making international news? I don't think so - ever heard of Plachimada in Kerala, India? See http://www.indiaresource.org/ and look at my previous thread Killer Cola

As for sources of rainforets mining and the destruction it does to human lives and the ecosystem:

"The Brazilian rainforest : politics, finance, mining and the environment" - David Cleary, London ; Economist Intelligence Unit, 1991
(I don't have the book on me at the moment to quote from)

Lertzman D, Vredenburg H
"Indigenous peoples, resource extraction and sustainable development: An ethical approach"
JOURNAL OF BUSINESS ETHICS 56 (3): 239-254 FEB 2005

Title: Downstream effects of erosion from small-scale gold mining on the instream habitat and fish community of a small neotropical rainforest stream
Author(s): Mol JH, Ouboter PE
Source: CONSERVATION BIOLOGY 18 (1): 201-214 FEB 2004
"The fish community of the stream affected by gold mining showed low species diversity, low proportion of young fishes, high proportion of midchannel surface-feeding fishes and fishes adapted to low light, low proportion of visually orienting fishes and fishes that hide in leaf-litter banks and woody debris, and low relative biomass of food fishes. ... Gold mining occurred over 7 years and is still occurring, but the sediment stored in the streambed is expected to pose a pollution problem long after the gold miners have left the area."


Title: Mud, mines and rainforest: a short history of human impact in western Tasmania, using pollen, trace metals and lead-210
Author(s): Harle KJ, Britton K, Heijnis H, Zawadzki A, Jenkinson AV
Source: AUSTRALIAN JOURNAL OF BOTANY 50 (4): 481-497 2002
"Interestingly, the evidence for the most significant impacts coincided with the escalation of open-cut mining from the 1950s to the 1970s, rather than earlier phases of smelter-produced pollution."


Title: From rainforest to wasteland in 100 years: The limnological legacy of the Queenstown mines, Western Tasmania
Author(s): Hodgson DA, Vyverman W, Chepstow-Lusty A, Tyler PA
Source: ARCHIV FUR HYDROBIOLOGIE 149 (1): 153-176 AUG 2000
"Areas within the rainforests of south-west Tasmania, home to Aboriginal tribes for more than 36,000 years, were dramatically changed in the late 1800s with the arrival of European prospectors. Subsequent large-scale mining and smelting operations resulted in acid rain, local deforestation and extensive soil erosion. Much of the area is now bare rock."


If you think I made those academic sources up - try some online sources you can access:
Rainforestweb.org
Mining, particularly gold mining, is an increasing threat to the world's rainforests and to forest communities. The social and environmental repercussions of mining are particularly disturbing considering that nearly 80 percent of newly mined gold goes towards jewelry fabrication.

In large-scale gold mining operations, enormous pits are dug out of the land; dynamite is often used to blast holes in the ground; ore is sprayed with cyanide solution to leach out the gold.


mongabay.com
Many of the planet's rainforests over lie rich mineral deposits. Extracting these minerals is frequently a destructive activity that causes many problems for both the rainforest, its inhabitants, and people living downstream.
The Guyana spill made international headlines for its magnitude -- over one billion gallons (four billion liters) of cyanide-laced waste water was released into a tributary of the Essequibo; and its effect -- causing widespread die-offs of aquatic and terrestrial plant and animal life, the poisoning of floodplain soils used for agriculture, the pollution of the main source of drinking water for thousands of people, and the destruction of the developing eco-tourism industry on the river. The mine, run by Golden Star Resources of Denver and Cambior of Montreal, at first tried to cover up the spill by burying fish carcasses. Six days after the spill, after reports that people began to find dead wildlife, the mine reported the accident to the Guyana government. However, despite the damage inflicted by the spill, the Guyanese government, strapped for cash to service its debt, granted new mining concessions on the New River.


This one is aimed at children - even kids know about rainforest mining
Rainforest Live: Mining/Oil

mines and communities.org
Provincial governments, indigenous peoples, environmentalists and academics from Canada to Asia to Australia are lining up to stop mining giant Placer Dome from tearing down a rainforest on the island of Borneo to hunt for gold.


These are some reported spills - into rivers used for drinking water:
rainforestinfo.org - Cyanide spills
JANUARY 11, 2005, GHANA: Wexford Ghana Limited at Akyempim in the Western Region, a subsidiary of Bogoso Gold Limited and owned by Golden Star Resources spilled cyanide into River Kubekro

OCTOBER 23 2004, GHANA: A cyanide spill occurred from a new tailings dam of Canadian company Bogoso Gold Limited into the river Aprepre, which serves as drinking water for surrounding communities, as well as other rivers including Egya Nsiah, Benya and Manse. Villagers downstream found hundreds of dead fish, crabs, shrimps and other life forms floating on the river. Some members of the community harvested and ate the fish before they received information about the spillage. (Source: www.ghanaweb.com)

OCTOBER 2004 WESTERN AUSTRALIA: A report commissioned by the WA Government into the tailings dams at the Kalgoorlie Gold mine confirmed that the mine has been leaking cyanide into the surrounding groundwater which was contaminated by cyanide and heavy metals. Surrounding community members have been complaining of impacts for over a decade but the company had previously denied the allegations.

JANUARY 30 2004, AUSTRALIA: A report commissioned by the Western Australia Government into the tailings dams at the Kalgoorlie Gold mine confirmed that the mine had been leaking cyanide into the surrounding groundwater. Surrounding community members had been complaining of impacts for over a decade but the company had previously denied the allegations. (Media Release by Robin Chapple, MLC, WA Legislative Council)

AUGUST 7 2004 PAPUA NEW GUINEA: Cyanide was discharged from the Misima mine, a subsidiary of Placer Dome, during decommissioning of the minesite, polluting oceans around the small island. The discharge resulted in poisoning of marine life, with reports of dead fish found floating in the oceans confirmed by the company as linked to the discharge. (The National, PNG, 11 of August)

JUNE 25 2004 CHINA: The State Council of China reported seven cases of leaks of lethal chemical products in the past week, which claimed a total of 21 lives across the country. The latest was a hydrogen cyanide gas leak from a gold mining plant in Beijing's suburban district of Huairou that killed three people and left another 15 hospitalized. (Source: People's Daily Online, 25th June 2004)

MARCH 21 2004, GHANA: Villagers near Prestea Sankofa Goldmine, a concession own by the Ghana National Petroleum Corporation (GNPC) in the Western Region spotted a cyanide spillage in their river and reported the matter to the mine.
(Source:http://www.wildchild777.com/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=2)

MARCH 24 2004, NEW ZEALAND: About thirty-five people were evacuated from a Lower Hutt transit depot as emergency services mopped up a toxic chemical spill. Two 180-litre drums of cyanide solution were damaged inside the Mainfreight depot, possibly by a forklift.

MARCH 18 2004, ROMANIA: Romania's Siret River, a tributary of the Danube, was reported to be contaminated by cyanide. The chemicals involved in the spill leaked from a deactivated chemical processing plant, where storage conditions may not have been up to international standards. Estimates are that "10 tons of toxic substances leaked into the river", according to Ioan Jelev, of Romania's Environment Ministry. A similar incident occured in 2001 in the same place, poisoning fish. (Source: Reuters).
They date way back - there are three reports from 2003 there in the USA.



I could very easily go on and on. Whole villages getting poisoned does not make international news - don't be so naive. Neither is it just 'less than credible sources' - my first sources are peer-reviewed academic sources in academic journals.
Mining in rainforests causes deforestation, ecosystem damage and poisoning of water used by humans.


As for
Savanik wrote:Last I checked, jungles were being chopped down by poor farmers that don't know about crop rotation.
I can hapilly prove you wrong on that account too. Most foresting is done by multinationals, possibly employing locals. In terms of deforestation - it's not locals not knowing about crop rotation - it's the large companies that make them grow only certain things - or, expecially, the compaines that make them farm cattle.
McDonald's sources a large amount of its beef from areas of devastated rainforest. As you may know, once the rainforest is cut down, it quickly desertifies - so there's not even grazing ground for long.
George Monbiot wrote:"cattle ranching and soya bean production are the two major causes of forest depletion in the Amazon region; McDonald's, by buying beef reared on this feed, are thus encouraging further clearances in Amazonia, and therefore play a major part in this process."
That's from George Monbiot - graduate, writer, broadcaster and academic - worked on BBC's natural history for some time, now writing books. - that quote is from the summary of a witness statement he made and signed - accessible here

It's not just McDonald's though - it's driven by large companies. Neither is it just 'poor farmers who don't know about crop rotation' - these people live in the rainforest - they know it better than anyone - but, due to large companines forcing them to work for them in order to live and earn a wage, as there's no where else for them to turn, they take part in practices that they know just destroy the area.
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Savanik
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Postby Savanik » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:53 pm

That's fairly impressively documented, and a number of them come from reputable sources. Kudos! I'm not used to that level of intellectual integrity from environmentalists - many of them just repeat what they've been told without looking into details and doing their research. Basing decisions that can affect entire countries on popular opinion instead of documented research is a poor way to conduct business, and I commend you for your diligence.

I'm going to move my specific responses into the Non-Cantr Related area, in the interest of staying on-topic.

As for this topic, I'll change the tack somewhat - do you think the game would be more interesting if resources like hematite, magnesium, and copper were more rare, and perhaps only found in mountains?

Sav
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Postby Lumin » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:06 pm

Well...it would probably screw over a lot of businesses that get their supplies from forests, but honestly I have to say I'd welcome such a change. Forests are already valuable enough without minerals, and in contrast there are just so many useless mountains out there. What are you supposed to do with a location that's only resources are stone and two or three hawks? Even a forest with nothing but wood and animals can be self-sufficient and infinitely better off than a place like that. I say distribute all those ores a little more fairly (and realistically). I bet that one thing it would do right away is encourage more steady trade, interesting politics, and organized location-spanning governments, as more towns and business set up manufacturing centers in mountains and have to keep them governed and supplied.

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