Something to think about....

[Schme]

And by you I don't mean you, Xeemar. I just mean whoever it is he's sending, according to your scenario.

[ratm]

Hehe, guess you won't like my sig too much Schme. (I had it before it was mentioned in this topic, please don't beat me)

Xeemar, thanks for educating me on Islam, I never knew they thought this world is simply like a video game (simplistic but I can't think of any good metaphors). That's a concept I've often thought of before, and I guess it's impossible to know whether or not this world is real. In fact, it depends on what "real" "really" is. Unless you've got a spoon, the only surefire way to check.

[Xeemaar]

Schme, sorry if it seemed wrong to you. I only just play it safe. I've got a firm belief that my holy scripture is purely Divine, and is unaltered. Whenever I talk about islam, the main thing I have in mind, is, that an athiest might question my claims about islam, and might logically disprove me. So I believe that, just in case, so I'm safe from any logically valid "proofs" that God is wrong. I agree, though, that our "logic" ability is very limited, and we only use that.

So what I'm saying is, I say what I say by keeping this scenario in mind: I'm in a debate with a person who doesn't have faith, just pure logic. If I need to convince him about the existence of God, I need to know his trade. So I limit myself to the very limited boundaries of "logic", and only speak with that in mind. After the person is logically convinced, only then would I digress from logic.

I may be wrong..
And by the way, I'm not preaching Islam here, just the existence of God.

[Dee]

Well Xeemar, I hate to say this but you've disappointed me!

You just say what you believe in, and it doesn't matter what others think or say... Because that's your belief.

Anyway, about that Ayah... "In Allah 'ala Kol Shei' Kadeer" This one means God has power over everything... He's the most powerful.

However, there's another one that says "In Allah Kader 'ala kol Shei'" This one means that God can do anything and everything.

See? There's two of them!!

So, God has power everything, and he's also capable of doing everything!! He's the most powerful, the most gracious...

Islam is a beautiful relegion, you'll discover that if you really try to know the meanings of everything...

[ephiroll]

I don't know how you would behave, but I don't know anyone who would give their life to perpetuate what they know is a lie.

I just want to point out that people die for things that are lies all the time, but that doesn't make them correct, or give any meaning to their deaths.
Modern examples are the Heaven's Gate cult, the Branch Dividians in Waco, and good ol' Mr. Jones and his cyanide flavored drinks down in Brazil.

The only reason we won't (probably) see any more religions (or cults if you prefere, since a cult is just a 'popular' religion) based on those three, is because everyone went down at once and no one was left to walk the earth and spread their lies. If all the apostles had been killed with Jesus, then there would be no such thing as 'Christianity' or 'Judism'. Islam, however, would the only one of the "Big three" around, and even the basics of it are based off the same Dead Sea scrolls (and older writings) as the other two.

[Dee]

All I know is that Islam is not based on old writings or Dead sea scrolls. It's based on the Qur'an. And Ahadeeth.. which are the sayings by the Prophet.

[Xeemaar]

Just to clarify it:

According to Islam, all the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity are the word of the same God as Islam, but those books were valid for a particular period of time, untill the next book was revealed to another "Prophet", and the previous ones were expired. According to Islam, they the basic beliefs of Islam, that is, the Unity of God. According to Islam, Quran was revealed on the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), and it spoke the same basic beliefs, but this book is supposed to be the last of the divine books, and is valid till the end of the world.

According to Islam, the previous books were corrupted by the people, and altered according to their own desire. Quran, on the other hand, is said to be divinely protected from alteration, and is unaltered, yet, which is a historical fact.

So, the beliefs of Islam being similiar to those in the Dead Sea Scrolls, is not a surprise.

[ephiroll]

@Xeemaar: I'm glad you actually know something about your religion beyond reciting quotes from memory, which is more then can be said about alot of other people. Just wondering, do you follow the Sunni or Shiite branch of the faith?

@Dee: The Islamic god is the same as Moses' god, therefore there is a direct correlation between the Quran and the Dead Sea scrolls. The scrolls aren't the original of anything either, they are in turn based off ancient Babylonian, Sumerian, and the texts of a little known cult called the "Jusits" (sp?) that was destroyed by the Roman empire in approx 800 BCE because they refused to worship the multiple gods that the Roman's demanded that they worship. That cult created the prophecy that Jesus sopposidly fulfillied, they are also believed to be the first group to claim that there was only ONE god, a belief that was later adopted by the major religions. The basis' of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were laid centuries before any of them existed.

[Schme]

Xeemar, belief is not about "Just in case."

I could leave offerings at every shrine in the in the damn world, just in case. I could try and practice hinduism, sikhism and everything else at the same time, just in case. But that's not how it works.

You believe or you do not.

And why should you care what a non-believer thinks? It's not about them. It's about God.

And if you need logic on your side to keep you faithful, anyone who need that, there out of luck. Logic will not back up faith, and faith will not confer to logic.

Alterings ones beliefs to conform with others beliefs is nonsensical.

[Dee]

@ephiroll: Xeemar and I follow the Sunni branch.. We believe it's the more accurate one since it's all about what the Prophet believed in.

Thank you for telling me the story

[Stan]

And why should you care what a non-believer thinks? It's not about them. It's about God.

I think most believers worry about non-believers for a couple of reasons.

First, Islam and Christianity both believe the consequences for non-belief has eternal and unpleasant consequences which the believer doesn't want anyone to suffer. A non-believer would think that we may be offended when someone doesn't believe but that's not it at all...at least not in my case. I'm not offended it makes me sad for that person.

Secondly, because there are earthly rewards that the person loses out on as well.

Thirdly, we are called in our Holy scriptures to share the truth. It is our responsibility.

There are many believers that are offensive when making a case for faith. I try not to be offensive, but sometimes when you're telling someone what you believe is the truth it sounds offensive. For example, how does a child tell his father he's an alcoholic without pissing off the father? Though what he says is said with love it sounds offensive.

I don't know, just my thoughts.

[Dee]

I agree with you, Stan... But we don't have to believe in false things just because we're afraid that a non-believer will out smart is in those kind of arguments... That's what Schme is trying to say, I think. And I agree with him too.

[Stan]

Yep. I think we are in complete agreement on that.

[Xeemaar]

Okay, Schme, Stan and Dee.
I need to tell you my opinion.

First of all, I need to clarify, that my point of view is almost exactly the same as Stan's. I feel it's my duty to introduce my religion, in the most pleasant way I can. That's what I'm doing here, both consciously and subconsciously.

Now, coming to Dee and Schme, I didn't assume "false things" just so a non-believer might not outsmart me. That would be total stupidity, anybody can see that. What I did was, this:

I was given two choices, about the verse of the Qur'an that speaks about God being able to do anything:

1) Either take the verse literally, exactly as revealed.
Or
2) Understand it through the interpretations of scholars.

Both sound good, and both are not neccessarilly wrong. But if I go with the second one, I'd easilly lose a dialogue with a non-believer. Moreover, even many interpretations of many scholars take the verse literally. So, I made a decision to go with the first choice.

So, when I'll talk to a non-believer, I'd say the Qur'an's words literally, that is, "God has Power over all things", not "God can do everything".

I'd only do this, to strengthen my position against the ever-questioning mind of a yet non-believer. I didn't believe "false things". I beleived just what Quran says, with good intentions. Please don't think I'm evil.

There is no doubt in my mind about the greatness of God. He alone has the maximum possible power.

Hope I made sense.

[Dee]

I still don't agree with you on that point. I don't think I ever will.

Let me tell you this, Xeemar... You know about Asmaa' Allah Al-Hosna, right? The 99 names of God?

One of them is Al-Kader. Not Al-Kadeer... Al-Kader.

Got it?