Gathering limits - ProgD update

[kinvoya]

I don't think Cantrs economic systems will ever mirror RL to any large extent. Things just aren't the same and never will be. As an example, most chars cannot be forced or persuaded to work inside. They just don't like it.

I wish we could just be left alone to develop whatever uniquely Cantrian solutions we might come up with instead of having game mechanics constantly changed to try to force our chars into rl ways of developing and organize their world. I'm not anti-change, I'm just tired of the changes that are suppose to make the Cantr economy more like real life.

The coin presses didn't work. Efforts to artificially encourage rl-like banking systems haven't worked very well. Repairs haven't reduced stockpiles of resources and tools. And the gathering restrictions won't lead toward more trade or even encourage cooperation, IMO. I'm not sure what the consequences will be but I can almost guarantee they won't be what was expected.

I think I'm going to start The Society for Cantrian Autonomy (SCA).

*chars all hold up their fists and chant* We don't have to live by your real life institutions!!! We will resist!!!

I'm only kinda joking.

EDIT: Cause I just thought of something. If this new percentage of the yield thing gets implemented wouldn't that mean that chars will have to count how many people are participaing in a certain type of project by going on the Activities Page and looking at every project of the same type and counting the workers (assuming they even know or care how the system optimally works)? This seems like a very minutes-consuming thing to have to do every time you want to get some food.

Plus, if some government type is willing to try to direct resource gatherers into the most productive arrangement I can see them being very frustrated by chars who just join willy-nilly and then fall asleep for days. Meanwhile, because they are helping on the wrong project, the coordinator's efforts are for nothing because the new char is reducing the rate of gathering.

Just trying to get one single char working on the right project with the right tool can make me want to pull my hair out sometimes. I can't imagine anyone volunteering to try to manage this nightmare.

[Jos Elkink]

Although your initial point was indeed correct; most major towns have developped around food.

Then again, most towns have developped around old-system spawning locations. Blaman and Cantr City being the exceptions, I guess.

edit: oh and of course the biggest exception; Dhung

Well, just to be sure: Blaman and Cantr City were original spawning locations. Siom was as well. The big towns that are now big even though they were not original spawning locations (Brunoi, Seatown Forest, Akypor) are so because of their hematite (or limestone). I don't know of any big town that is big thanks to its food supply, while it was not an original spawning location (but I might well be missing some).

And Dhung is an exception in what sense? It was never a spawning location, but it is a hematite location, yet it never developed in a town thanks to a somewhat unfriendly king who did everything in his capacity to limit any development on the island, until everybody fled on ships in the hope of finding another place to live.

I just reply to that detail, because I don't have anything really to say yet other than that, but know that I'm reading the above discussion with much interest ... Nick's point about trading hematite with Siom simply because they have the strong economy necessary to import these things is exactly, totally my point about big cities ... Siom is, I think, not under any threat. It has strong trading ties with many locations and is one of the main sailing hobs. If it runs out of food in Siom or Jakara, it can follow the coast to Zuzi or Shambon, or import from Moku, or from other lands closeby. Siom is definitely not at risk with all its inhabitants, sailors, machines, vehicles, etc. Btw, just if you're interested, in terms of building density, Siom is only the 8th biggest city, with Blojt, Quillanoi, and Tircqi at the top of the list. Blojt is another main sailing and trading hub, while Quillanoi and Tircqi have plenty of 'hinterland' to supply food.

Anyway, I hope this discussion will continue for a bit, since it's interesting and really about the core of the game, imho. It's interesting to read about these trading efforts, since it means part of the core idea of the game is at least working ... Just two points: Julie, I think you tend to be slightly too pessimistic about the chances of adaptation to changes in the game - your analyses are pretty good, usually, but you overestimate the damage, imho; secondly, I see you talk about 'banning all potatoes from Siom' and things along those lines - that is a bit too strong, at least at this point. We're thinking about how to further implement land scarcity, and yes, one element should be that buildings and harbours etc. take away land that can otherwise be used for resource gathering. But how exactly or what exactly is yet unclear, and we'll of course take into account how many buildings and slots there already are. So Siom will not be totally reduced to a no-slot location or anything. How this is all going to be implemented is unclear yet, but don't start with too many doom scenarios just yet ...

[Racetyme]

I am very strongly against any new changes that force my character to start working on trading for food as one of his main pasttimes. If that is something I want to do then I will make a char who likes trading. I don't want to have all my chars trading though, I want to be able to do a variety of things that just aren't feasible in the real world. That is why I play cantr. If I wanted to spend my whole life trading things to get rich, I would go work harder in the real world, so my labour would be more valuable some day. I sure as hell don't want to spend all my time working to make a buncy of other people who don't exist rich!

[nitefyre]

I'm sure this argument's been brought up before, but I just wanted to add it in case it hasn't.

I don't see anyone outside in New York City farming for potatoes. You'd have to travel to a suburb if you wanted farm fresh goods. Import/export using improved infrastructure. Hopefully, that is what these changes will encourage.

[Gyrus]

My 2 cents:

There is a huge difference between, benig a trader of food supply, and going to a market and buying some food. At specially, if those characters are living in the middle of a barter economy, it may seem confusing but I bet If you think for some. The difference is clear.

Althoguh we live in big cities, we never gather our food. But this does not mean that we all are TRADERS ... We all are buyers ... And you are right, if you are a common person ... All the things you buy will make SOMEONE rich ... But I do not see any wrong side in this ... Because that other guy, puts all his money into a risky position... So in Cantr it is more or the less the same ... Some players give 100 min for a charecter to rule a big city, + more minutes to think what to do tomorrow. So they should earn more I guess... And I also have ruler chars and ordinary citizens, and I love all ...

ps: Sorry If the main idea spread a little ...

[julie2]

I'm sure this argument's been brought up before, but I just wanted to add it in case it hasn't.

I don't see anyone outside in New York City farming for potatoes. You'd have to travel to a suburb if you wanted farm fresh goods. Import/export using improved infrastructure. Hopefully, that is what these changes will encourage.

Yep. It's been given before. And also this answer has been given before:

The county I live in contains several cities and a lot of productive countryside as well. If you moved the place wholesale to Cantr, it might well be called Siom or Blojt. I live in a city, myself. If I want a farming job , there are places within about two hour's walking distance of my home where I could work. At my old house, near the edge of the city, there was a farm ten minutes walking distance away, where I actually did casual work sometimes Also farmers drive right into our city centre to pick up potato-pickers for the day.

On the other hand, if I lived in Siom and wanted to farm outside Siom. I'd be walking for days and days, and the first places I came to wouldn't have food at all, just wood. When I finally came to somewhere else where I could farm (about a year away in most directions I'd be an entirely different different country, at that rate ) that place would also qualify as a city, so I'd still be stuffed so far as farmng is concerned.

How closely would you say thattsituation resembles real life, Nitefyre?

The only logical way to view it, (if you really want Cantr to be vaguely analogous to real life), is that each location contains both countryside and town all rolled into one. Siom isn't just a City, it's a big fertile County with a single City in the middle of it.

[Nick]

Well, I assume that's sort of what could happen with Roadmap.
But this is a gigantic programming change and it is of better use to wait, then to complain.
A few days travel isn't that much to perform a large trade. People are not realising this. But this is an IC stifling to the economy, with people just frankly being too lazy to go trade.
Import something to Quillanoi for instance, and you can find yourself rich. But most people just don't bother. The same could be said for many regions, such as the Olip/Nazy region. There are lots of valuable coastal resources there, and many people have chosen to make their living by sea-trading. Olip may even find that it could be cheaper to trade with Siom for coal, as boats are cheap and can hold a vast ammount of resources. Even a small boat can carry enough to accomodate most large scale trades. One person weighs 60kg... and that's a lot of raw resources. Even longboats can hold 5 people; put only one captain on that and I will challenge you to run out of space.
Veichles are also not as expensive to make as you may think. Sure, it may take you decades to output your first car. But it will certainly be easier to make your second, especially if you obtained your resources through smart economical means, rather than just sitting around and hoping someone with magnesium strolls by, or sending a newspawn on a journey to get a little bit of it, hoping he comes back. Trade! Ever since Cantr's formation, it's been possible to trade. Around 1800 days later, and people still don't trade that much. Stop blaming mechanics.

[melbi]

When I hear the word "trading", I reach for my gun.

[Nick]

Uh... explain?

[melbi]

There is a line often attributed to Hermann Goering, "Every time I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." Umberto Eco points out that this typifies the fascist "mistrust of the intellectual world."

Anyway...

Thinking that people might know that quote, I was trying to express my dislike for trading, for hearing talk of trading, for trading as the solution to PMS, and so on.

Not everyone likes trading. Not everyone wants to trade. I dare say that many people dislike being forced to trade.

Personally I am quite tired of characters arriving in town saying, "I have some crap here to trade, is anyone interested?" Usually the answer is no.

I have a few hot-button topics: barley and trading. I JUST GO CRAZY!

That's all I meant.

[Nick]

There is a line often attributed to Hermann Goering, "Every time I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun." Umberto Eco points out that this typifies the fascist "mistrust of the intellectual world."

Anyway...

Thinking that people might know that quote, I was trying to express my dislike for trading, for hearing talk of trading, for trading as the solution to PMS, and so on.

Not everyone likes trading. Not everyone wants to trade. I dare say that many people dislike being forced to trade.

Personally I am quite tired of characters arriving in town saying, "I have some crap here to trade, is anyone interested?" Usually the answer is no.

I have a few hot-button topics: barley and trading. I JUST GO CRAZY!

That's all I meant.

I still don't get you. What's wrong with trading? Or is it the same when refusing culture as it is to refuse trade... you're just screwing yourself over.

[Jos Elkink]

Not everyone likes trading. Not everyone wants to trade. I dare say that many people dislike being forced to trade.

I see your point, but I think either in the above discussion or in a similar one on the forum the point was already made that it is nobody's intention to make everybody traders. If traders do their job well, and cities become true trading centres, regular people will simply have to go to the right shop and buy what they need. I'm sure you don't mean you don't like shopping when you say you don't like trading ... In Cantr, shopping doesn't exist yet, even thought trading definitely does. It's the development of shopping (as in, having proper, well-resourced trading centres) as a phenomenon that is one of the goals of all the things we're talking about here ...

[nitefyre]

I'm sure this argument's been brought up before, but I just wanted to add it in case it hasn't.

I don't see anyone outside in New York City farming for potatoes. You'd have to travel to a suburb if you wanted farm fresh goods. Import/export using improved infrastructure. Hopefully, that is what these changes will encourage.

Yep. It's been given before. And also this answer has been given before:

The county I live in contains several cities and a lot of productive countryside as well. If you moved the place wholesale to Cantr, it might well be called Siom or Blojt. I live in a city, myself. If I want a farming job , there are places within about two hour's walking distance of my home where I could work. At my old house, near the edge of the city, there was a farm ten minutes walking distance away, where I actually did casual work sometimes Also farmers drive right into our city centre to pick up potato-pickers for the day.

On the other hand, if I lived in Siom and wanted to farm outside Siom. I'd be walking for days and days, and the first places I came to wouldn't have food at all, just wood. When I finally came to somewhere else where I could farm (about a year away in most directions I'd be an entirely different different country, at that rate ) that place would also qualify as a city, so I'd still be stuffed so far as farmng is concerned.

How closely would you say thattsituation resembles real life, Nitefyre?

The only logical way to view it, (if you really want Cantr to be vaguely analogous to real life), is that each location contains both countryside and town all rolled into one. Siom isn't just a City, it's a big fertile County with a single City in the middle of it.

Whilst you're saying that a town should be fertile lands and developed area built into one, I respectfully disagree. Why? Because Cantr's locations was implemented in regional blocks (i.e. Drojf has Djorf Hills North, West, South; Krif has Krif Hills North, East, West), where the main town was intended to be the center (market place, town hall, smiths, etc) of that area. Now, I'm sure Krif or Drojf, or any capital city has some farming areas in its actual limits, though to support the entire populace of that city, you're going to need the other, neighboring towns; via trade.

The wholesale import of locations needs to be seen on the level of "areas" not "locations."

This reasoning is further supported by your argument that you can access 'farmland' within several hours (IRL) with proper infrastructure (improved roads, and you can access the neighboring towns within those hours from the 'center'. Use vehicles and you speed that up even more). I know that from my apartment in New York, I cannot access (undeveloped) 'farmland' within a matter of minutes- the marginal time alotted for inner-location movement.

Investigate it in a PPC (product possibilities curve) and it makes perfect sense why encouragement in development of a certain market should sacrafice other potentials (basic agriculture). Keeping in mind that technology is one of the ways to spark overall economic growth (if you're not pleased with your current situation), it is applicable and doable in Cantr.

[Nick]

Exactly, you can build veichles to overcome these obstacles.
And if you can't afford a car; build a longboat, or a tandem bike.

[melbi]

I still don't get you. What's wrong with trading?

What will you give me if I tell you?

It makes everything more complicated. Instead of simply being able to do things, you have to interact with more or less organized groups that may not be interested in supplying what you want.

Plus, as I said in another post, everything takes longer: an unpredicatible time longer. You ask a question, get the answer tomorrow, it's the wrong person, and the right person is asleep.

I saw in Akypor Forest south that restrictions on gathering were imposed, and people stood around for a real-life week trying repeatedly to get permission to gather wood. They then ran out of food, because they hadn't planned on the complication.

And I know that you consider this just growing pains or whatever.

However, no matter how organized or technologically advanced we get, the greatest inefficiencies will always be the slow interactions between people. Unless there are lots of well organized people, you can have a single point of failure in this trading, and then everything stops.

Every time I post something on this subject, I wish I had bitten my tongue instead. I try not to, but everytime I see that word trading...