To the Programmers: Enough with the changes, please

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Songthrush
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Postby Songthrush » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:46 am

:lol: :lol:

Thanks for illustrating my point further, Nick. Did you know that "it's more realistic" is the most common excuse for ill-conceived gameplay choices to come up in game development courses for young people trying to break into the industry? A game's task is not "to be realistic"; being realistic is often a CONSEQUENCE of a great design, but not at all its prerequisite.

There's really nothing terribly realistic about a random number and an error message that now restricts resource collection which previously was unlimited for all time. I think it was unlimited for a good reason. Due to an intuitive design decision made by the game's programmer, which I personally thought was very clever. People, especially newspawns, have to have something "to do" in the game (through the interface), something material and easy to understand. Resource collection was that something until very recently, and the amazing abundance of different resources implemented in the game testifies to that fact.

You can see I'm still really aching and worried about the situation that new players nowadays see AN ERROR MESSAGE whenever they try to do what used to be the most basic, elementary act of a Cantrian- start a resource collection project.
Last edited by Songthrush on Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sho
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Postby Sho » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 am

Cantr's not a game. In a game, realism is simply a tactic (and not a central one) to improve playability, but realism can be a goal in itself in Cantr.
Songthrush
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Postby Songthrush » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:58 am

And playability is a tactic to improve sellability, etc.

These are simplifications which miss the whole point that every game, including Cantr, is a reflection of a certain set of underlying philosophical principles. Granted, these are entirely different for Cantr than say a game intended for sale. That's why we are interested in it, isn't it?

But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater; Cantr has gameplay and it has to be designed with a bit more foresight and care than simply "let's make it realistic".

The foundational baggage of Cantr as a game implies a certain narrow meaning of "realistic", too - correct me if I am wrong, but I strongly believe that Cantr aims to be realistic in the sense of facilitating realistic human social interactions of the widest possible variety.

That's a very specific kind of "realistic" which I'd say has terribly little to do with the sort of "realism" Nick and Snakebitz have been spearheading in our discussions.
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colonel
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Postby colonel » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:00 am

*Shakes his head* Umm, I... *Shakes his head again and walks away slowly.*

I LOVE CANTR! I LOVE CANTR! I LOVE CANTR!
Songthrush
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Postby Songthrush » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:02 am

I love your radio station.
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colonel
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Postby colonel » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:06 am

Well thank you. :D
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Gyrus
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Postby Gyrus » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:33 am

Well here is my two words:

I bet that this topic is not AGAINST changes ... I bet that kinvoya is also fond of new implementations to the game mechanics. But as players, it has been LITTLE fast for us.

As I am trying to set up a new region, I have those peoblems doubled. People keep asking, why we can not work on the projects, why our boats can not undock, etc. etc.

I really put all my coins on CHANGES and NEW IMPLEMENTATIONS but all I want a slow paced integration. As our "Socail Simulation" is a SLOW PACED one. :wink:

Summary:

I really like CHANGES and appreciate the DEPARTMENTS working to make our game more realistic. All I want is just pıt some gaps between, changes.

Thank you,

I know you read, and I know you will agree.

THE CANTR STAFF rulz !!!!

ps: This is the first time I use this expresion, I guess.. INteresting
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Cookie
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Postby Cookie » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:45 am

Gyrus wrote:I know you read, and I know you will agree.


Do you REALLY?
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Gyrus
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Postby Gyrus » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:48 am

Cookie Monster wrote:Do you REALLY?


It has been this way uptodate with all my bugs, suggestions, flysprays, wishes, my sticky demands...

At least, I get a full answer each time. Sometimes I understand why it can not be.

But I trully know that Staff is full of reasonable people. That you can talk and find an answer in the end.
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Surly
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Postby Surly » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:16 am

Sho wrote:Cantr's not a game. In a game, realism is simply a tactic (and not a central one) to improve playability, but realism can be a goal in itself in Cantr.
That is wrong. Cantr is a game, and you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Yes, Nick, the 'realism' excuse is used for many changes. But item rot is not realistic. The current implementation of max. resource gatherers is not realistic. My point is that that is just an excuse, for those who benefit from changes like that to hide behind.

What would be more realistic is sorting several of Cantr's imbalances once and for all...
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julie2
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Postby julie2 » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:54 am

Satai wrote:: Did you know that "it's more realistic" is the most common excuse for ill-conceived gameplay choices to come up in game development courses for young people trying to break into the industry? A game's task is not "to be realistic"; being realistic is often a CONSEQUENCE of a great design, but not at all its prerequisite.

There's really nothing terribly realistic about a random number and an error message that now restricts resource collection which previously was unlimited for all time. I think it was unlimited for a good reason. Due to an intuitive design decision made by the game's programmer, which I personally thought was very clever. People, especially newspawns, have to have something "to do" in the game (through the interface), something material and easy to understand. Resource collection was that something until very recently, and the amazing abundance of different resources implemented in the game testifies to that fact.

You can see I'm still really aching and worried about the situation that new players nowadays see AN ERROR MESSAGE whenever they try to do what used to be the most basic, elementary act of a Cantrian- start a resource collection project.



Well put Satai. It's clear from your posts that you know something about game design. I don't, but I think I can understand dynamic systems (such as this game ) fairly well. Theres a lot of talk about "maintaining the balance of the game " on this forum. Until recently, I thought that meant that you don't screw up all the good stuff that's working nicely just for the sake of implementing some relatively superficial new idea. Now I'm thinking that either it either means something else entirely, or the Prog, Dept have somehow conceived some really brlliant ideas n the past, without actually realising what they were doing (and so they just don't notice when their new implementions undermine their own good work )

I've thought of other reasons why "infinite resources" were necessary to maintain the "balance of the game " (as I understood the term ), and I've given them elsewhere. I too, thought it was pretty inspired to include that particular "unrealistic" feature, as a means of balancing out other unrealistic features which are not so easily adressed. The net result, in my opinion, is much more realistic.

I think that the challenge in designing a game like this is that of creating a realistic whole out of unrealistic parts . If you focus on making some of those parts more realistic, in some simplistic sense of that word, you can damage the suble balance which creates an effect of realism once you put them all together. Which is what you meant I think, when you said "being realistic is often a CONSEQUENCE of a great design, but not at all its prerequisite"

The thing is, some changes have a lot of different repercussions, and somebody needs to think through all those repercussions and decide if the cure isn't worse than the disease. I'm not confident that the Prog,. Dept are taking the trouble to do that. In fact they seem to be taking a "Lets see what happens" approach, even though it's not easy to trace the causal links, not even if you take one major change at a time. But like Kinvoya (was it?) said, wer'e not even getting chance to try and assess the effects of one big change before the next one hits. We'll notice the negative effects, alright, but we're likely to be arguing until Kingdom Come about what exactly caused them.
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Jur Schagen
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Postby Jur Schagen » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:54 pm

Nick is wrong in the fact that the changes are implemented because of "realism" issues... most were introduced for game-balancing reasons - no matter how faulty this implementation is, according to some of you. From the top of my head:

- hematite change: adjust for the fact that iron production was too easy and too important;
- tiredness: discourage single-person strike-type battles against populated towns;
- deterioration: a first effort to do something about the immense stockpiles of existing goods, and the fact that nothing ever got destroyed;
- land scarcity: an effort to get rid of numb newspawns doing nothing but stand around and gather.

Now, what exactly is "balancing the game"? There seems to be some discussion... In my opinion, it means tweaking the game engine and database (the RD job) so that unwanted effects, or unwanted behaviour of players, becomes harder or impossible, and to improve the gaming experience for the players within the main framework of the general game design. The design team is not entirely happy with the game as it is being played. In particular, we want a minimum of characters that have little or no interaction with their fellow chars. We want to encourage cooperation as well as conflict. We want the chars to become "living" creatures as much as they possibly can in a web game where they are, in the end, nothing but pixels on a screen and records in a database. We want to discourage sole drifters, doing nothing but stand around and gather potatoes.

Julie, balancing the game is indeed about "not screwing up the good stuff" as well. We don't feel like we're doing that - we are attempting to "improve on the bad stuff" that we consider the above paragraph. And, no matter what you say, it is working in that respect. The amount of towns that are actively discussing what to do with their limited resource slots is numerous. Not all are dealing with it *well*, and not all take on an approach that we had envisioned - but in Cantr, that's up to the players, not the designers. There is no preprogrammed way to deal with it. It's Cantr.

I'm not saying that all the changes have been implemented in a perfect way, especially the first-time implementation. Julie made some points about the time the slot fell free an the time that the chars woke that were perfectly valid criticism and that we, indeed, hadn't tought about when implementing it. We were looking to alleviate that (Keves' suggestion), and now we are flamed for trying that - but that's not the point. The point is that, while we can make predictions about how the game mechanics will work, it is impossible to fathom the way the chars (or actually their players) react to a "crisis" like this. As a matter of fact, we were expecting a general reaction that we have actually only seen in a few places. But that's the beauty of it. Noone can concieve how a crisis will be solved, maybe especially us, the design team. That's up to the players.

Kinvoya, you have pressed our noses to a point that indeed gets forgotten sometimes. If the boat warping problem gets us to a stage where individual characters are actually afraid to use their boat, we have obviously gotten this way too far. Again, I apologize for that and I hope that you will drag our feet back to the ground if this occurs again. It is true that bugfixing isn't exactly the most fun to do, but we must fully accept that it is a part of our job too - as well as player communication, another recurring subject of criticism that we're trying to work on.

On the other hand, we have no intention whatsoever to ban change from Cantr. The game will forever be in the "under construction" stage - that is, your chars will continue to be faced with problems that didn't exist before. imho, that's the real fun of it - adjusting to circumstances.

Jur.

PS - Satai, to avoid confusion, the PD and ProgD are two completely different departments. The first is the "Players Department", that is concerned with player communication, and especially finding CRB's and cheating players and dealing with them. The second is the "Programming Department", that is responsible for, well, programming. You seemed to confuse them in your article on the last page; I assume you meant ProgD.
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kinvoya
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Postby kinvoya » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:59 pm

Thank you for your feedback, Jur. I'm glad to know a focus will be placed on the boat warping.

I'm a little concerned about this, however:
On the other hand, we have no intention whatsoever to ban change from Cantr. The game will forever be in the "under construction" stage - that is, your chars will continue to be faced with problems that didn't exist before. imho, that's the real fun of it - adjusting to circumstances.

Other than possibly Schme, no one has asked for change to be banned. We have tried very hard to say that is not what we are requesting. We would like change to be slowed down a little and some time allowed between changes for us to fully learn to deal with each new change.
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Schme
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Postby Schme » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:57 pm

I never said we should "Ban change."

I said that the game is fine as it is, and for societies to devollop we need consistency, and that I don't like some of the recent and planned changes.
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Postby west » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:43 am

Satai wrote:This will be a post which could be construed as criticism of the PD. It is not - I'd like to criticize the gameplay choices the PD currently favours. I think there's a bit of a crisis of identity going on at present in Cantr, but only a few of those who are in the heat of the programming action seem to really recognize it.


I assume you mean ProgD, as Players' Department is solely concerned with the CR and dealing with players.


Using my overactive Cantr player's imagination, I can easily see how things currently happen with the PD:

A few regulars meet in the private PD IRC channel and start talking. What could we do to make Cantr more realistic, more exciting, more like a real simulator of real societies?

And then our volunteers start going at it: "Let's cap the resource collection, that ought to promote trade!", "Let's make tools and weapons degrade, that'll make them more valuable game items since they'll naturally become scarcer!", "Let's add tiredness so you can't possibly do all the things you want to do in one go!"

And so on. I don't know about you folks, but I see a definite pattern of "how can we make the player's life more difficult" here. This is just my vision, but how far from everyday PD actuality is it, really? And what does any of this have to do with promoting realistic societies to form?

This has everyting to do with making Cantr a pointless double-ended resource funnel, a neverending game of resource collection and consumption, and currently,it seems to me, the PD is trying very hard to find a good balance where things are always scarce and therefore people have better things to do than for instance roleplaying or effecting radical structural changes in their societies.

When gameplay changes are suggested that could truly change the way player interactions in game unfold, they are met with quite a bit of bitterness and derision: "what are you guys talking about? You want to make the game easier to play? No way, not over My Dead Body!", etc. etc. Although I do fully recognize that it's much easier to slap an IF statement in the code which will randomly limit resources than to implement even a handful of the suggestions that have come from actual players, since the latter tend to challenge the coder in a non-trivial way, they are quite a job and a handful.

How much experience do the PD's volunteer members have with game design in the context of muds or even more complex types of games? I would wager not a whole lot; yet they still don't seem at all willing to listen when their active players straight up tell them that their ideas do not work as intended, and in extreme cases are even seen as outright bugs by unsuspecting Cantrians!


Again, ProgD and RD, not PD. I actually agree with you on most things; I have definitely had my reservations about many of the changes (deterioration especially); there's a difference between what programmers guess will change the game for the better and what actually starts happening when 3000 players actually start having to deal with it. What I've noticed is a reluctance (from some, not all, ProgD and RD members) to go in and MODIFY existing values or changes once they've actually been demonstrated to be imbalanced by the bulk of players.

That being said, there's not a lot of overlap between departments. Really the only thing they have in common is that they are understaffed, and consist of volunteers--people who are giving their time and energy to try to maintain a game that means a lot to a great deal of people.

Maybe your town has a suicidal note thief (something I personally think should be dealt with in-game, no matter how annoying it is), is frustrated with the gathering limits, and is dealing with animal attacks. Yes, these are all bad news. But they're not part of a grand conspiracy. suicidal newspawns are (ostensibly) a PD issue (mostly because I think people would rather have us do it than actually deal with the problem themselves, by having a guard or keeping copies of the important notes), resource limits are ProgD, and the on-again-off-again deadliness of the animals is RD.

One thing these departments have in common, as I've said, is that they're understaffed and usually pretty complicated. If you have beef with how one of them is handling something, yeah, whine about it on the forums--I know I have--but better yet, offer your services.

Cantr doesn't work without staff, and because it can't afford to pay for them, it has to rely on volunteers. YOU can volunteer for something, and give back to cantr. And who knows, maybe you'll even make it a better place.
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