Boat movement

[Snake_byte]

What are you talking about? Just use logic. If you have a galleon Surly it isn't going to be run by just two or three people... Not everyone is going to get off the ship... If you build a large ship be prepared. If you build a large ship then you probaly need a larger crew... If not, why are you building the damn thing. You're wasting your time

[kinvoya]

Even with a crew a large ship still has the vulnerability factor of the crew being unable to go onto the smaller locked ship. Or has this change, also?

[Surly]

Snake_byte, just use logic... a Cantr city consists of anything over 50 people. Compare that to RL, where a city is several thousand. There are not enough people for this ridiculous change. There is no boat security, at all. Seriously, this will be a huge hit to boat trade...

There are not enough people in Cantr to penalise those people with the initiative to build boats and actually help society.

This is yet another step to penalise the older characters, and the active characters. Seriously, what is the point in building anything largewr tahn a sloop now? Absolutely nothing at all.

[Black Canyon]

What are you talking about? Just use logic. If you have a galleon Surly it isn't going to be run by just two or three people... Not everyone is going to get off the ship... If you build a large ship be prepared. If you build a large ship then you probaly need a larger crew... If not, why are you building the damn thing. You're wasting your time

What are you talking about? The size of the crew makes absolutely no difference. I could have a galleon with a crew of a dozen and still be vulnerable to some single newspawn on a dinghy. Not only vulnerable, but completely at his mercy. That is utterly ridiculous.

[Surly]

My point is that there is no security or advantage to a large ship anymore. The sloop is faster than anything but the raker. The dinghy's and longboats get free locks, so they can now dock to any larger ship WHEREVER IT IS and dock without being able to be docked in return.

There is no boat security, and this is quite simply a no-brainer.

[Surly]

And remember that larger ships can only dock in a harbour... which in Cantr means you cannot see your boat anymore. You have to leave your boat to trade...

There are not enough people for this. Pure and simple.

[Black Canyon]

I still fail to see why the number of people in cantr is even an issue here. Certainly keeping people on the boat would ensure that it is not completely stolen out from under you. However, it does not address the issue that the entire ship can be pillaged of every item not carried by one goofball in a dinghy. There is no way to secure items on a ship. There are no lockable containers nor cabins on ships.

And what is the general purpose of having a large ship? Trade. Therefore it would be expected that it would be carrying a large amount of resources and trade goods. It can now be docked to by a dinghy... or a darter..... or whatever and all those goods can be stolen. What difference does it make if you have 20 crew aboard the ship? Even if you happened to have several awake at the same time.... the best you could hope for would be a few swipes at him before he withdrew to the safety of his own locked boat. And even if you had your own dinghy to pursue the thief... it could not dock to the darter or dinghy anyway.

This makes no sense to me.

[Sho]

I think the following two changes, neither of which would take much programming, should resolve everyone's complaints:

Revert the situation on ships being able to dock to ships docked to land or in harbours.
Make it so ships can't dock to moving or docking ships no matter how close they are.

The harbor change needs reverting because it's not fixing anything and is (or will be - I know I'd be going on a pirating spree if I still had my character with a dinghy) playing hell with playability and balance.
The second change makes it so nobody should ever be able to board a ship they don't belong on. If you keep your ship moving, you won't get attacked by pirates. Simple.

[west]

I agree with the first one--you shouldn't be able to dock to a boat that's docked to land or to a harbour.

But I totally disagree with the second one. Pirates SHOULD be able to dock to a moving vessel.

HOWEVER

1) Boats docking to a larger boat should have to go through the lock of that larger boat before being able to enter it; either by breaking the lock or having the key,

and

2) Larger boats should be able to have some sort of project (similar to dragging a body) to undock a smaller ship from them.

These two changes should equalize things a bit, making sure the advantage isn't 100% on the side of the docker, and also giving an incentive for larger boats to carry larger crews (so they can repel boarders).

If there's a more sensible suggestion than this, I'd love to hear it.

[Sho]

Okay, I prefer |west|'s suggestion to mine - better balance and perhaps more realistic.

[Jos Elkink]

West, I like your points.

Would it be acceptable if the lock-thing was implemented, but without the lock-breaking option? So that picking a lock is only possible on land? (It's rather complicated to implement it with boats - that is, I can't figure out yet how.)

Oh, and should docking on docked ships really be impossible? Why? Even after going through a locked lock is impossible?

[Talapus]

I think the implementation of locks blocking entry would be a good move, with the understanding that the locks would be made breakable at a later point in time. I think that pirates should be able to exist, but the current situation is out of control. And with the locks, it would actually be nice if you left the option to dock to boats in harbor, as it would allow a single person to attach several boats. Anyway, that is what I think, and I am sure you will get a number of other opinions.

[Oasis]

West, I like your points.

Would it be acceptable if the lock-thing was implemented, but without the lock-breaking option? So that picking a lock is only possible on land? (It's rather complicated to implement it with boats - that is, I can't figure out yet how.)

Oh, and should docking on docked ships really be impossible? Why? Even after going through a locked lock is impossible?

Are you suggesting that it still be possible to dock onto a larger ship, however if locked, there is no possible way to board it? This I don't like. Floundering ships holding only dead bodies and cargo can never be salvaged. (Not to mention the end of "on the seas" pirating) If you really want it to be so you have to break the lock off before being able to board, please don't implement the inaccessibility until this is able to be programmed.

Why not just make it so the people on the larger boat can also walk onto the smaller one, the way currently the ones from the smaller can walk on to the larger.

And if this is made so, docking to docked boats should not be allowed. It is not difficult to load boats onto another by undocking them first. And if the timing is right, it doesn't have to take a long time. An unnecessary change, the payoff for being too high, imo.

[Jos Elkink]

Why not just make it so the people on the larger boat can also walk onto the smaller one, the way currently the ones from the smaller can walk on to the larger.

Huh? Is that not possible? A docked vessel should be like a building on a location - so you should be able to walk either direction? ... Oh wait, when docked, the smaller one can be locked, you mean, while the bigger one might not be ...

... And that might actually be the solution! ... It is easy, perhaps, to implement that a ship can dock on a locked ship, but to actually enter it after docking might be blocked by a lock ... and in that case the whole breaking lock thingy might not be as complicated. Would that be a fair enough solution?

And if this is made so, docking to docked boats should not be allowed. It is not difficult to load boats onto another by undocking them first. And if the timing is right, it doesn't have to take a long time. An unnecessary change, the payoff for being too high, imo.

I still fail to see what actually the problem is with docking on docked ships ... can someone enlighten me?

[Sho]

What seems to be the consensus:
A ship can dock to another ship if that ship is the right size (as currently), and is either not moving or very close. A ship docked to another ship, land or a harbor cannot be docked to.
Once docked, the crew of either ship can go onto the other only if they can go through the locks on both ships, either by having the keys or breaking the locks.
The smaller ship can undock at any time. The larger ship can force the smaller ship to undock through a process similar to dragging.

Effects:
It will still be perfectly possible for characters to salvage unmanned drifting ships.
Pirates will find it significantly more difficult, but not impossible, to board a ship at sea.
Ship owners won't need to worry about their ships being stolen while they're docked.

Do we want this? (I do.) And how much work would it take to implement it?