Maximum number of resource gatherers

[kroner]

i added some sample equations. i don't know if it makes things any clearer though...

and as for "each resource in each location", yes, that's definitely the major problem with this idea.

edit: after reading back further, now i see that the issue you were talking about is whether the limit should be placed on each resource individually or on the location as a whole. the system i posted could be extended to covering all the gathering slots for a town, but it still doesn't deal with that fundamental problem of people being forced away from development because they have to focus on gathering enough food for the town...

maybe there could be a compromise in that there would be "overlap" in the number of slots designated for each resource. for example create 2 dedicated slots for each resource, and 10 shared slots. this would still be in keeping with the simulation of land scarcity, since while there is land that could be used for both farming or mining irl, there is also some that's not suitable for carrot farming, and some that's not suitable for mining. this way having 2 people on hematite wouldn't get in the way of food production, but more would start to encroach on "farming land" by occupying shared slots.

[KVZ]

I will say once more how I see this implemented:

There will be factor for each location, and this factor will determine how much characters can gather all together:

f.e.: there is factor=4 in one location, and 10 people farming carrots and 2 digging stone. Factor 4 guarante maximal output of carrots in this location for 1600 grams, and maximal output of stone in this location to 3000 gram, but there 12 people working all together, and one of them have dung-fork, so it would be divided like that: dung-fork will count like two people so, we must divide maximal output of each resource by 13, so: all carrot farmers without tool will get 123 grams/day, that one with dung-fork will get 246 grams/day, and stone diggers will get 230 grams/day.

Of course, if there will be fewer people, then they still can't get more resource than their maximal ability with or without tool (and machines). There no skills in this example to make it simpler, and factor 4 is very low, and should not be used that low in any location. This is just example how it should be implemented. And, yes, factors should be visible, so people will know which location is good to have many gatherers and which one is bad.

This will still allow that what Jos wants, it will force societies to organize, colonize for food, gathering more valuable resources in each area, becaue if someone will gather food in that area, then gathering speed of that valuable resource will fall. But it will be more realistic and fair, and will not make artifically limit forced number of gatherers, nothing like that should be programmed, because it is even worse than programmed money Societies should determine how much of people should gather something in one location, and then force people to move or stop if they can, but not programmed system Programmed system could only limit maximal resources gathering speed. People should still have possiblity to steal some of resource gathering speed on their own goals, and if in some location there is no organized form of government and police force which can stop them, then programmed system should not stop them from doing that And one more argument, societies should have possibility to to use more man power to archieve the same effect as using tools or machines. Tools and machines should be only for help individuals to get more resource for themselves or giving society more man power available for other tasks. That is how it works in real world, and it should be done in Cantr. So, my suggestion of land scarcity is the best solution imho. And Jos should agree with this (and others too)

[Animated]

Mr. Jos!
do something with those f***** limits or i'll leave the game!
and i think i won't be the only one...

there are many decent proposals here, so you can choose... and the current one is completely irrational!

BTW: i'm a Pole and i've just registered on forums to voice my objection.

[Ahoyhoy]

Every single one of my character have been affected today by these limits and they were never affected before today. I can't even get food. If you're going to set limits at least implement farms into the game first so people won't die of hunger.

[marol]

In real world I can estimate potential of the place. Some islands now are being under exploration and people are looking for places to found new cities. Some of my characters are exploring places where no one has been before. How can I choose right place do live I don't know its limits?

And if you keep limits in the game, I'll keep out the game. Sorry, no bonus :/

[Jos Elkink]

Moral is simple,you don't have a character in polish location,and you don't want to make problems for You and your english better understood-contacting friends.

This I find an unfair accusation. I'm not ignoring the Polish region or their complaints, and I'm thinking about solutions. I already solved the burial issues, because of the Polish region. It is difficult to create a game that's both interesting in developed areas and in less developed areas, but I'm trying to balance properly. And I am listening.

If you think that not immediately abolishing every new feature when there are some complaints means I'm ignoring the complaints, then I think that's silly.

You're suprised when You see in this topic a lot of polish voice?Polish forum is the second forum when you calculate number of topics,users...

Yes, I know we have a very large group of Polish players - I was simply noting that virtually *all* complaints came from Polish players.

Why not? Today big mine, tomorrow big field, day after tomorrow again big mine? It is unrealistic

Yes, I totally agree. But I don't think the solution is to have limits per resource ... If I do that I remove all politics / organisation, as I explained. I do see this implementation as a preliminary implementation, though - I would have preferred something where you indeed build a field for farming, for example, which uses land, and which can then only be build for farming ... but that implementation is much more difficult, which is why we decided to implemented an easier system that more or less simulates land scarcity.

Summary: Find a job that needs to be done. Do it. Trade for what you need. And learn some patience. Success doesn't come over night. And just because you are not making or collecting everything yourself does not make you a communist.

Thanks for your support

As far as the Polish problem is concerned, it looks like what happened something like this.... In the begining, people were relatively productive. (...) This makes it harder for the new lands to keep up, let alone close the gap with the other areas. I don't think this is unique to the polish area. I don't recall any moterized vehicles on K-island, but I could be mistaken

Yes, you are totally right and this is exactly the problem. That's what I meant above - it's difficult to balance the game in such a way that new / underdeveloped areas are interesting to play and developing fast enough, while the mode developed areas are still interesting as well and challenging. I do indeed think that for the Polish area, the game is too harsh right now. And I'm thinking about solutions. I don't think not adding land scarcity is the solution, since I think land scarcity was the most important thing missing from the game so far.

Not that cantr has to be realistic, but the "land scarcity" argument doesn't hold water when a 20 or so people are all that can work in one area and the next area is 4-5 days walk away. Its like we have these little islands of productivity surrounded by immense areas of useless blighted land.

Yeah, I know ... But you need *some* kind of system within the current idea. The roadmap shows how I'm thinking about a better solution, where land scarcity really depends more on land size, but right now this is the placeholder implementation.

EUREKA If you realy want to determine how much in total can be gathered, why not give compromise solution, f.e. there could be a limit of total amount of resources can be gathered in any area and it would work like thet every resource will have daily gathering value mulipled by factor and result of every gathering will give the same factor, to make this more clear:
there is a factor 20 in any location, and then:
it is possible to gather 8000 of carrots/day, or 15000 of stone/day, or 4000 of carrots and 7500 of stone, with all possible combinations.

Yes, reading the above discussion, my mind was already going into this direction. Harder to implement, but definitely worth considering. I have to think about it. Your arguments for why this should be implemented are very good, though, and at least well in line with the basic idea of Cantr

Yep, there almost no animals on old Polish island, and we not killed all.

Ok, good to know ...

But what with characters individuality? It seems you really like communist/forced labour systems and you like to force charactes to make them more strong.

No, I'm not trying to make Cantr full of forced labour systems (although one or two would be nice ... there is too little variation in social organisation right now) ... but don't forget that in the real world, we also didn't start with liberal, capitalist, democratic states. These have taken a long time to develop, with the general populous gradually rising against oppressive lords and land owners. We could well have similar developments in Cantr, with strong dictators, that are eventually forced away to make place for democracy and individual freedom.

In fact, my own character, Jonathan Russell in Quillanoi, was one of the big fighters for individual freedom. But it was a fight and challenge and therefor fun to play - it shouldn't be that it's too easy to do this. A game where individuals have all freedom to ignore society, and where society has little costs when individuals do so, it simply too boring ...

And Jos implementation of land scarcity is not to make Cantr more realistic but to make it from slow-paced game to make it veeeery slow paced game, and make lives of Polish charactrs wortless

No, in my opinion the game is already slow enough and progress definitely is. But I want land to be scarce to force politics and trade. I think in real life economies came about thanks to land scarcity. If you look at how states developed, it's basically land owners becoming more and more powerful, eventually developing in kings, and eventually being overthrown by a communist or democratic regime. In other words, it all began with the land owners. In Cantr there is no such thing, and I think there should be.

do something with those f***** limits or i'll leave the game!

People explaining to me that there is something wrong and suggesting how it can be changed are very welcome. People ordering me what to do are ignored. I think it's totally rude to have that attitude to people who are trying to make this game as good as possible. Trying, not always succeeding, but trying nonetheless ...

[Jos Elkink]

And if you keep limits in the game, I'll keep out the game. Sorry, no bonus :/

Again, don't just threaten or bribe - it's totally annoying, rude, and unproductive.

Anyway, I keep repeating my point and talking too much, but it really bugs me that people don't seem to see why land scarcity really is a necessity for the game. Or perhaps I'm wrong, but then I need really good arguments ... For me this is one of the most important changes - skills etc. were only implemented because people kept asking, this is implemented because I wanted it mostly - even though I agree that this is not the most optimal implementation (I would have liked something more directly related to land, which might still happen in the future).

Basically, what is politics about? Politics is about deciding on distribution of goods / wealth etc. Now, say there are two people in the game both interested in getting a house. In the previous system, the best compromise would be if both gathered their stone, built their house, and both would be happy. No issues. No politics needed. The most obvious solution in almost any conflict was to share. If location A had hematite and B needed it, what would be a good motive for A to refuse it to B? Yes, it can get more powerful by refusing, but what to do with that power? It's rather pointless ... But now with land scarcity, there are actually issues. Only so much stone can be gathered, so who of the two is going to gather the stone? They'll have to find a political solution now. Or what about the hematite? Now if A allows B to gather hematite, it actually means less hematite for A, so there is a serious cost in involved. Instead, A can refuse the hematite to B and use its wealth to force other regions under their control and claim their resources.

Not only politics matters, but also trade. Now if you have 10 slots, and both hematite and food, you have to make a choice. You can't do everything. So it might well be better to gather hematite and trade it for food, than to gather food yourself.

Anyway, do people really not agree that land scarcity is important? I can understand arguments about this not being a very realistic implementation, and I'm thinking about KeVes' suggestion, but I don't understand people who say there should be simply no limits.

There was something else I wanted to say ... ah, yes, I still find it difficult to see exactly where this is worse for the Polish region than for the other ones. I mean, I know the Polish are still underdeveloped and any slowdown of development is annoying, and I totally agree that something should be done about that, but I don't think that land scarcity should be ruining for the Polish region. The Polish have fairly big islands, so definitely enough slots for all their chars to work hard. Why would that be more problematic than for other areas? Do you really think that land scarcity is the big issue holding the Polish area back, or is it rather the last drop of an already problematic situation, and should the solution be fonud not in adjusting the land scarcity system, but in easing other parts of the game (like how we speeded up steel production recently). We could, for example, increase all resource gathering rates or something like that, or make characters walk faster, or ... well, there might be different solutions other than removing or reducing land scarcity.

[marol]

it really bugs me that people don't seem to see why land scarcity really is a necessity for the game.

Jos, it's so simple - you're administrator and we're players, so we've got different points of view. You see good of the game, we see good of our chars. It is obvious that if you cut-off some resources players will threaten, bribe, do anything to stop you Can't you see it? So take it easy

[Raist]

Why the limits are still working ?:| Limits system is bugged, please fix it and then include it in the game.

[marol]

Another issue is that game becomes harder to new players. It's gonna be harder to join cities developed cities, reason is obvious. On the other hand it will increase probability of riots.

[Widar]

Mayby the limits are good proposition, but you should think on some aspekt. On the island are two place with hematite, and we have 10 slots on each lokation, so we have 20 slots per day on hematite - not bad - but when the food is on the same lokation the amount of hematit is decreaseing rapidly, and whot when more reasours are on the same lokation, so whe are with about 5 - 6 peopel dig hematit per day, that is weary low. This will couse that less advanced islad will be like 3 world country, and the islads with machinery will be like USA or Europe

You have to forgive my bad english, but i hope you'll understad my point of view.

[magicek]

Generally I am not oposed to the limits, sure it will bring more co-operation between characters, cities, and even whole Emipres or Kingdoms. But also it can bring more violence to the game. E.g City A has hematite which they trade with city B for limestone, also city A has near coal in location which is part of the kingdom, city A is now able to produce steel, city B exporting limestone can import coal and hematite, also can produce steel. Perfect co-operation and so on. But imagine now that on the whole island there are more cities propobly jealous of steel which they couldn't have, this can bring war between city A, B(allies) and other cities. I know that wars and violence are what shaped our civilization, but less violnece is what differs Cantr from other games.

[Gyrus]

Polish island and dear Polish players,

I really and truly understand your effort to glorify your island, and it is such a perfect goal.

But before complaining look at this...

Turkish island ... Is so awkward that, at first we even did not had "hematit" and "coal" and "stone"... It took years for us to discover that and later i wrote to Game Masters, and they put them in. After that it took years for us to find all the stuff... Now we know where they are, but in the place we gather "hematit" there is no FOOD... and the closest place where we gather food is 3 slots away ... and added to this "hematit" is in one corner "coal" is in other and guess what "limestone and stone" in on the other corner. *grins* But what we do ... We have the fun of ROLE PLAYING these difficulties ... It made us work together and colect all these resources in one big city ... Now there are a lot of player, wondering around for new resources ... Some even looking for diamond ... I bet he will never find it ... But it makes us the chance to roleplay ...

Nobody said that CANTR world will be a place where everyone will get what he wants easily ... *reads the intro again* *shakes his head* No they did not ... So please try to get fun ...

If we have to say it in short ... I really understand you well... Believe me .. I am also trying to form a community from ashes ... (You may ask your LD members) ... But there is no point to accuse Jos or other implementations ... There will be more soon ... Some will give us benefits ... some will take away ... But in summary we will have the fun of playing this great game ... I really know that they are putting to much in it ... Let us not brake them ... Because it is easy ...

Yours,

ps: Hope nobody is offended

[Sierak]

But Turkish main island is not overpopulated and turkish characters can work non-stop.This limit is more frustrated,because when You find a hematite you can dig it without obstacles,but a lot of people in polish locations now doing nothing even antipodean.I think most of this boring people in polish locations preffered go to long wanders and have a guarantee and can dig in new place without fears.You don't understand it because number of turkish players is too little.When number of turkish players start to grow you understand.Now situation in main polish island is tragical,but in another polish island is start to make the same,because number of polish players still grows and the most of polish players have characters in main island,and a lot of new players also being there.

[Schme]

So many grand and eloquent arguments, for both sides.


However, I say again, death to the limits.