PRUT wrote:In location YYY can be produced just 8000g rice per day - no matter how many farmers will farm the fields!! Farm won't be bigger, so all the farmers will farm the part of total amount, dependingly of their indywidual skills and used tools or machineries.
This is exactly that what I have suggested one page before. And this is most realistic land scarcity implementation we can invent. And I very like land scarcity like that to make game more realistic, but still fun to play and playable. But wait... I have another solution which Jos could like... see below.
Schme wrote:Also, I strongly disagree with the suggestion above the above post. That's even worse than what we have now.
No, worse is that when people can't gather anything because of current Jos "land scarcity" implementation

NiKnight wrote:Maybe RD and PD should change limit to 2/3 (or 1/2) of habitants in village/town that can gather resources?
This is bad idea, because people can make "zombie" characters to remove limits and if location have small number of habitants why to have still any limit?
Hal wrote:For what do these complications?
This game is really great but without these damned limits
If Jos really need land scarcity, it should be done like me and PRUT suggested (or more like I will suggest bellow). And think, it would be more fun, if in one forest you can gather 300 grams of wood and in other only 150 because of limit, so you have to plan where to make expeditions, etc... But still you can gather something you need everywhere
Michal wrote:No,PRUT proposition is better!
Remember that this is also my proposition, and I would be VERY happy if this will be implemented, but after Jos answer I see that chances are low

But I found another implementation which I hope Jos will like much more...
Jos Elkink wrote:1) Limits per resource will definitely not be introduced. I don't want to fix how much of what resources can be gathered, but how much in total can be gathered. Land scarcity requires politics / social organisation to determine what the slots will be used for - setting it per resource type leaves out all politics and leaves it to the one optimal use.
Why not?

This implementation is more realistic, why in the forest someone can't collect mushrooms if they are there just because others gather wood? And why someone can't gather ANYTHING just becuase someone was first?.. He should have possibility to "steal" something from field/forest/etc... Still govs can determine who should be allowed to gather and give licences (because too big number of gatherers will make everyone gather lower amount), and who should do what if they want to decide what is best for their development. But they are not forced to give so much limitation and force them like with limit of resource gatherers. And why you want to force govs to such changes? I recognise this as CRB on purpose

EUREKA

If you realy want to determine
how much in total can be gathered, why not give compromise solution, f.e. there could be a limit of total amount of resources can be gathered in any area and it would work like thet every resource will have daily gathering value mulipled by
factor and result of every gathering will give the same factor, to make this more clear:
there is a factor 20 in any location, and then:
it is possible to gather 8000 of carrots/day, or 15000 of stone/day, or 4000 of carrots and 7500 of stone, with all possible combinations. So you will get what you want, but there will still be possible to "steal" some carrots

Because dayly limit will be divided on all gatheres based on their skills, tools and
machines 
So, someone using harvester will still get more, but when there will be 100 resource thieves in that location he will not get as much as now

I know this is harder to implement, but if you really need to determine
how much in total can be gathered it
should be done in this way 
I don't think you should done this immediately, but please consider to do that in near future, and if you really want to stay with current implementation please at least double maximal number of gatherers, for the god sake of all Polish players.
Jos Elkink wrote:population size should be partly depend on where resources are and how many there are, not the other way around. If there is not enough, perhaps you should consider moving to a neighbouring location.
I agree with that. This is good point, and I like that in "land scarcity", but at now there almost no place on old Polish island where characters can move to gather something, so please do as I said.
Jos Elkink wrote:3) I still think land scarcity is a good way to avoid this idea that so many people are just silently working for themselves, without any social involvement. The game is and has always been about social organisation, and this is a good incentive to do so.
But why to force people to be "social"? What about individuality? And I think, that this will make more CRB in the game, becuase players will do anything to not obey the rules

And I also consider this as too much integration in characters lives.
Jos Elkink wrote:4) Whether or not to introduce a currency - something I'm not much in favour of, even though I see some advantages - is really a different topic.
There should not be programmed currency in the game, everything should be done by characters themselves, in other way we will kill what Cantr is, and we should change descriptions about this game. And I like current description very much.
Jos Elkink wrote:5) The idea that long repeating projects take too much of the digging slots is a strange argument: you can always tell that person to stop digging, or drag him/her away, or kill him/her. In other words: it can be socially controlled. Note that if you stop working on a project, the slot becomes available again, even if the project persists.
We know all about this, but this force us characters to such brutal behaviour and is unrealistic. Why there in every location everyone could gather beffore, and now they are should not be allowed to do that? And this make other bad things, like suicides, many characters consider their own dead because they feel worhless. Many of my characters consider to starve to save food, so if they will not eat few days, then they will save some food, and then they will eat some to kill hunger. Is that what you wanted to archieve?

I'm scared what will happen if they will forget to get food on the right time from their suppiles...
Jos Elkink wrote:6) Has the Polish area really no animals? If so, please drop me an email and I'll fix that.
Yep, there almost no animals on old Polish island, and we not killed all. There was never too not much animals on this island after they was added. Biggest herd I saw on this island is 5 wild boars. And you think it is much of them to not be killed by stupid characters who don't read and respect rules?... They will never reproduce! Please give us more animals if there is that gatherers limit, so us characters can hunt at least... And please give us big heards (like 20 animals in heard as I saw in English locations), so if someone will kill one, there still will be big chance for them to reproduce. Please give us buffalos, cheetahs, cows, crocodiles (well, there are no swamps but I like them), desert tortoises (well, there are no deserts but they are very hard to kill so it will give us much fun

), elephants

, lemmings (i love lemmings!), lemurs (they are so funny), LIONS

(yep, we want real zoo there), sheeps, and.... famous desert beavers

Or at least some of them...
Jos Elkink wrote:7) Too many people seem to continue to think that a city should produce its own food. Many cities have formed around places where rare and important resources can be found, for example hematite. One would expect those cities to be able to trade their hematite for food from neighbouring villages. Why would that not be possible? Even in the Polish region?
I see your point, but in current implementation it is worhless, it will rather force cities to produce machines which are not limited by resource gatherers limit. So please do as I suggested: make limit of maximal possible resource gathering amount based on factor which can be multipled by any resource daily gathering base and include machines in those calculation.
Jos Elkink wrote:Note that if a few people use dung forks and farm for food, food production is already really very high and can sustain a large number of people with relatively little work / slots used. It might be advisable to organise that those people that dig are the ones with the right tools.
I know that, but there is still very few tools on Polish island to get food with them and there are still no axes or pickaxes, because steel is luxury! And why there so many characters forced to do nothing? Why they can "steal" from field/mine/forest?
Jos Elkink wrote:9) Again, as said, the limits as they are currently set are preliminary. If we really decide that they are too low, we might increase them. But for all locations, not depending on population size, or language, or ...
So I ask you Jos, for the sake of all Polish players, please double at least maximal number of gatherers in
all locations
Jos Elkink wrote:Aren't the Polish a little bit too much in a rush to keep up with the English?
Well, we are not very powerful nation in real, but we like to be very powerful society in Cantr
Jos Elkink wrote:Note that the English areas have developed for four years now, so it will simply take time to get a similar industrial status
With current maximal number of gatherers we will not develop to this level even in 8 years
Jos Elkink wrote:11) Note that still loads of things - manufacturing, hunting, use of machines, etc - still do not use digging slots. So there is lots to do, probably, in most towns.
What we can manufacture when we have not right tools, machines and enough resources that we can gather? And why we have to make 1000 stone hammers, when we can't gather enough wood to build cottages? Hunt on what when there almost no animals? How we can use even if we have 10 smelting furnaces in the city if there is not enough resources to refine? Why there is no stone/iron age tools for faster stone, wood, hematite and coal collection but only steel ones? And very important question, why in this "land scarcity" can be more gathered on the same location using tools, skill and machines,
but limited number of gatherers This is no land scarcity, it is
man scarcity as PRUT wrote

If this should be implemented this should be
factor of maximal resource gathering amount of all resources, but please make sure that those factors will not be too low like current "land scarcity" to stop the progress of the game...
Because it is unrealistic that 20 people can gather 16000 carrots/day from one field using dung-forks, but there can't 40 people without dung-forks work on the same field to gather the same daily amount of carrots 
Please see this point

Jos Elkink wrote:12) Finally, don't forget that this game is about social organisation, not building as quickly as possible. Those people that really only play to gather resources and produce might be playing the wrong game. Well, I'd like to keep even those players, but ... well, you really should think about playing more socially. E.g. 'nothing to do' in a town is really odd considering how few political debates, auctions, letter writing, newspapers, etc. I see. Those should be much more core of the game than they are now, imho.
We all know that this game is about social organisation, but now organisations are forced to face with unrealistic laws of physics, like that with dung-fork they can gather more carrots from the same field, then archieve the same effect using more man power

And there was enough political debates, letter writing, newspapers already in Polish locations! And I bet that more then in many English locations. And this limitation will not intecrase those activity in Polish area, but rather there will be less activity like that, because more players and their characters would be sick to play Cantr with that bad implementation of land scarcity. There will be more killing, dragging and suicides

Jos Elkink wrote:I don't think we want the kind of game where every new character just gathers everything for him/herself and builds everything for him/herself
But what with characters individuality? It seems you really like communist/forced labour systems and you like to force charactes to make them more strong. And this can make more CRB's, because players will do the worst to be more "organised"

Jos Elkink wrote:Any suggestions (perhaps in separate threads) about how we can speed up the game again, without removing all added challenges, would definitely be welcome
Sorry, but I gived those suggestions in this post. I like to be implemented stone/iron age tools for faster gathering of wood, coal, hematite and stone... We can make shovel to get limestone/spinage faster, and sickles, dung-forks for other food, but we can't make stone/iron tools for faster gathering of other very important resources. We need steel, and steel is hard to obtain because of lack of animals to make bellows.
Michal wrote:Limit per resource is the most realistic,anyway you don't like this conception because in english locations you have a lot of machines,and have now no problems,but if english locations have limit per resource this is really catastrophe then english characters can't using they's machine and bring real part of material.
Good point which says why there is not so many English complaints

But I gived compromise solution which Jos can't ignore

CyboRKg wrote:Why not? Today big mine, tomorrow big field, day after tomorrow again big mine?
It is unrealistic 
But it was unrealistic before too... And Jos implementation of land scarcity is not to make Cantr more realistic but to make it from slow-paced game to make it veeeery slow paced game, and make lives of Polish charactrs wortless

Where is this?
Cantr wrote:Cantr II is set in a fairly realistic world
If there should be land scarcity it should be done like I said above in this post.