London Blasts

[formerly known as hf]

Apparently a possible bmber was shot in Stockwell, London this morning...

I'm glad those copycat bombs didn't go off yesterday. This is getting a bit much, if only because of the disruption to those of us here that need to get a tube or bus home.

I don't think that if the UK had not joined the US in invading Iraq, or Afghanistan, that we would have avoided terrorist attacks. London has been, is, and always will be a target for terrorists. Whether they be Al-Qaieda, IRA or whoever.

I don't think joining Iraq helped - but I don't think that 'it made London more of a target' is a valid reason for us not to have joined. I can think of many other, and better reasons, I'm still against the war and have been from the start.

The problems in Palestine are one of the major issues, the whole treatment of the middle east by the west for the past century is what drives this.

It was always a case of when, not if, a bomb would explode in London. It's only been avoided so far by the work of intelligence agencies. Those who managed to infiltrate the groups that plan this.

What must be realised about Al_qaeda and related terrorists groups, is that they are the opposite of the usual military model. There are no commanders, no pyramid of power with a person or a group of people shifting orders down. They are disparate, seperated groups. Often with no contact with Bin-Laden or his associates, but via indoctrination. The intelligence services have come to see that. Why can't our military services? We can't assume that by targetting a country, a person, we can fight terrorism.

[rklenseth]

Irish Republican Army aren't terrorists. There have been a few, a few among their ranks that committed acts of terror but there have also been a few, a few among the Protestant Irish and even English Intelligence agencies that have committed acts of terror as well.

I hate it when the IRA is painted with such a broad brush. I have relatives that were and are today still part of the IRA and they never once supported or committed acts of terrorism. Well, some of them killed a bunch of Black and Tans but they were English terrorists anyways. IRA is split into many factions and there are some factions that believe the only way to totally free Ireland from the English is through force, even today. Freeing Ireland through force was used successfully in the 19th Century but today it won't work in freeing Northern Ireland from the English.

[Floyd]

The Black and Tans were people too.. just because they had questionable ethics dont make it cool do kill 'e,m with nail bombs. Correct me if i'm wrong, but 20 years ago, was the IRA not one of the top 10 militant groups around the world? They did some pretty horrible stuff...

[rklenseth]

Some people in the IRA did some horrible things. Just as some English people did to the Irish for 700 years of English domination anf genocide of the Irish people.

The Black and Tans used many brutal tactics against the Irish during the War for Independence starting in 1919 andthe IRA just adapted to their tactics and used it against them later.

http://www.answers.com/black+and+tans&r=67

On the first Bloody Sunday on 21 November 1920, after the IRA killed fourteen British undercover officers, the Black and Tans (or, more likely, the Auxiliaries) drove on to the pitch during a Gaelic football match in Croke Park, Dublin. They started shooting into the crowd and twelve spectators and players were killed and sixty wounded. There were also atrocities carried out by the Black and Tans in Cork city, the centre of which was burned out, and Balbriggan. The Mayor of Cork died after a 78-day hunger strike in Brixton Prison, London. The Black and Tans' campaign was little more than state-sponsored terrorism, with very little pretence being made at promoting law and order and great emphasis on crushing Irish separatism, legal or illegal. There is no doubt as to the ferocity of the fighting and that atrocities were committed, and feelings continue to run high regarding their actions. "Black and Tan" or "Tan" remains a pejorative term for Englishmen in Ireland. The Anglo-Irish War is often referred to by modern Irish republicans as the "Tan War".

[Floyd]

Fair do's i cant really claim to know too much on the subject

[formerly known as hf]

I make no excuses for the treatment of the Irish nationals by the British - and am well aware of the awful events.

The terrorist groups within the IRA, go under the name, the IRA - how else should I refer to them? I'm well aware that the Irish Republican Army are not entirely a bunch of terrorists, but I would still say it's fair to label the IRA, at least in part, a terrorist group, along with being a powerful political force, and a protest group, and the many other roles they carry.


It's also been reported that the peron shot dead - five times - in the head - whilst they were on the floor and unable to move - had NO relation to the attacks. Something seems wrong here. In the past few years, unpublished guidelines for the police have allowed them to aim for the head without prior warning. Am I the only one that sees this move as horrendous. This guy was shot dead by plain clothed policemen. If I was chased by a group of people with guns who hadn't announced themselves as police - I'd bloody well run too. This is just an example of over- and bad reaction to the terrorist threats - I'd bet you the terrorists behind the bombings are laughing at this - this kind of havoc they've created where anyone can be a suspect - and liable to be shot in order to kill by the same people that are there to protect them...

[Stan]

That is a VERY sad story. I don't know what really happened or how it happened, but the result is sad, so sad.

[west]

I make no excuses for the treatment of the Irish nationals by the British - and am well aware of the awful events.

The terrorist groups within the IRA, go under the name, the IRA - how else should I refer to them? I'm well aware that the Irish Republican Army are not entirely a bunch of terrorists, but I would still say it's fair to label the IRA, at least in part, a terrorist group, along with being a powerful political force, and a protest group, and the many other roles they carry.


It's also been reported that the peron shot dead - five times - in the head - whilst they were on the floor and unable to move - had NO relation to the attacks. Something seems wrong here. In the past few years, unpublished guidelines for the police have allowed them to aim for the head without prior warning. Am I the only one that sees this move as horrendous. This guy was shot dead by plain clothed policemen. If I was chased by a group of people with guns who hadn't announced themselves as police - I'd bloody well run too. This is just an example of over- and bad reaction to the terrorist threats - I'd bet you the terrorists behind the bombings are laughing at this - this kind of havoc they've created where anyone can be a suspect - and liable to be shot in order to kill by the same people that are there to protect them...

That's a terrible shame.

And RKL, what would you consider Sinn Fean to be, if not terrorists?

[Pirog]

It's because they want to destroy your way of life. Not because they are freedom fighters or anything else, it's because they are hate mongers just like white supremisists, nazi's what have you.

I find this view not only wrong, but counter-productive. (Even nazis have a purpose with their warped ideology. It sounds foolish to everyone else, but to them I'm sure it makes sense.)

Since it is impossible to kill every terrorist on the planet it is important that we try to understand their reasoning for doing what they do. Otherwise we will never find a way to come to terms with these people.

Just look at the terrorists that struck London. They all seemed to have been percieved as friendly people with friends and family that was unaware of their plans.

The picture of the terrorists as evil monsters that the American and British government is trying to portray won't lead to anything else than paranoia and a justification to commit atrocious acts against people suspected of having ties with them.

I'm sure that there is a way to deal with the terrorists so that they will stop. It may cost more than we are willing to pay, but I do believe that they are killing themselves and other for a purpose that is justified in their eyes.

[Stan]

I agree, but I believe their purpose is self glorification. That's just my opinion. The example of Nazi's, etc is probably not a good example. The better example is serial killing. These guys are group serial killing and they get a thrill out of planning innocent's death. That's what I believe.

The fact that they lead otherwise normal lives just proves it. One day they are normal people, or so everyone thinks. Yet, under the facade they are planning to kill people. This is more like a serial killer than any freedom fighter or the like that I've ever seen.

[formerly known as hf]

I've always maintained that the kind of people that blow up public places are part of all societies - as stan says - like serial killers. All it takes are a set of issues to spark this - wether it be Northern Ireland, the treatment of Palestinians, the war in Iraq, the desire for a seperate nation for Basque people etc. etc.


I can understand why an issue might push someone to want to conduct violence - I myself am a firm believer in peaceful protest, but I understand why violence often becomes to be seen as the only option. I don't think, therefore, that people who are simply murderers of innocents, can be understood - the same way I do not understand wars that hurt so many thousands of innocent people. But there are people for whom these actions seem right for them - wether it be serial killings or bombings - and these, wuite frankly disturbed people, are not limited to middle eastern muslims
Little Johnny across the road might well become a terrorist - all he needs is an issue that he feels so strongly about...

[Stan]

Yep...well said.

[Pirog]

I disagree. I think the main point comes down to them seeing us as evil...and in a way, we truly are.

Personally I know that if I had lived in a third world country I would probably hate the western world, and I believe many of you would too.

We, a a small percentage of the world population, consumes practically all the resources of the world...and while 90 % of the people dying from the problems that we in the west causes are living in the other part of the world we are making excuses instead of even admitting that there is a problem.

This, although a fundamental change of our society and way of living, is in my eyes the only solution for stopping terrorism.

[Stan]

I agree about the use of resources, but it isn't the poor people of the world such as those found in Eastern Africa and parts of SE Asia that are doing the killings. They are people with well-to-do families in some case from wealthy nations that sell us oil.

Their stated purpose is the death of Israel and America...There's no way to discuss that rationally. The only solution for them is the total destruction of Israel, how does someone sit and negotiate that?

I am a big advocate of helping the poor of the world. I just spent 3 weeks dispensing that help in Kenya, personally. I lived among the poor and destitute, that is not the only motivation for what is occurring. The other factor is hate. And that is not a negotiable topic.

[Pie]

i agre with what stan and hfarmer say. If somone beleivs enough to do somthing, like, the destruction of isriel, they will fight for it. If i believ enough that bush does have good ideas, but he is doing them a little...bad, but it still works for good, i would protest my ideas. Of cours, i don't protest, becous i live in nebraska, and alot of us are Conservative. But, just put yourself into there shoes, so to speak, and see how you would act before you start calling them evil. The world isn't all black and white, there are some shades of grey.