Evolution

[wichita]

The problem as I see it with Intelligent Design theory is that its goal specifically seems to be to discount Evolution without providing any evidence against it. Intelligent Design is not something that can be quantified, if it did happen, so trying to say, "oh, Evolution didn't happen, we were designed by intelligent beings" isn't good enough.

I personally tend to believe that it's just a BIT too improbable that life on earth could have evolved to where it is without a bit of guidance.

So I guess where I stand is, I believe in a God and I believe that God had a hand in designing and forming the world. I believe that the METHOD He used was as discovered by science; i.e., incorporating evolution.

So I believe in intelligent design, I suppose, but intelligent design that followed transparent principles that we can observe through science.

I thought that was brilliant, West, and sums up a lot of feelings that I have. Science is an organized study to systematically derive an explanation to observed phenomenon. But it is limited, because when we are out of data, all we can do is postulate and develop theories to the question at hand. The problem I see, is that so many people rely on science now as the new religion.

Can anyone remember the title of the PBS mini-series comparing the lives of Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis? It was incredibly good, and focused on this very concept. The need to answer every question following the scientific method was intimately connected with the athiesm of Freud, Jung, usw. Lewis and Tolkein on the other hand, were led by more philosphical debates that lead them to the acceptance of a higher power because they simply could not explain everything by their own facilities.

What's the point to this bit of Wichitan philosophy? Well....what is science? It is a system of philosphy that happens to be based on logic. That is why scientists earn Doctorate of Philosophy degrees. Is this system of philosophy superior to all other systems? It's hard to say, isn't it. It is definitely better than repeating "Uh huh" until the opposition stops talking...but that doesn't make it the best. That's not logical. (Using my point against it to support my point, do you like what I've done there! )

I once crocheted an afghan (a small blanket). Afterward I estimated that there were 20,000 individual crochet stiches in it. So I took this long straight string and manipulated it into a semi-solid rectangle with structure and pattern. Each stich is essentially a small hole and all the holes are attached to each other so it could be looked at as a model of a lifeform consisting of 20,000 cells. Very much like a sponge - which some people consider to have been the first probable multicelled creature. (OK, so I just described Intelligent Design. Shut up! Laughing I am not disproving my own argument!!!) There were also a couple of incorrect stiches (mutation!). If my afghan could have reproduced it might have eventually evolved into a sentient blanket which could destroy the planet!

And I loved this gedanken experiment too! You're awesome K, I don't care what Mr. Grumpy Gills, Jr. says about you!! Come here and give me a hug you religious nutty feminazi you!

Well, I am in the sciences and I have to say that the more I learned about biology and how complex everything is, the more I realized that I don't think we came about by chance. There are patterns that repeat throughout the world and species. In my personal beliefs, I lean more towards intelligent design than evolution. I am too much of a scientist to be a Creationist. However, I don't have anything to back up my beliefs, other than my beliefs. *grins* So, say what you want about my post, but you won't change my mind and I bet I won't change yours. How about we just live and let live and call a truce?

And finally, I honestly believe that if you are to sit down and honestly take a look at the world of science, you all will be able to come to a conclusion similar to this. Firstly, we as a human race will never answer every question. Science by nature raises two questions for evey one it answers. It's a common maxim, ask any scientist.

Secondly, I think this question is simply beyond the scope of science to be able to answer. Therefore, I also assume the philosophy that I as a scientist, am merely analyzing the world around me to figure out how it works or how I can use it to make something new for the future.

There is a wise saying in the Bible, whether you want to accept it as the Divinely Inspired Words of a Creator God or not, that says one should not consider things too great for his mind to handle. I find a lot of truth in this proverb (actually it is ina psalm ), and the world would be a happier place if a few more people would too.

[Surly]

And I loved this gedanken experiment too! You're awesome K, I don't care what Mr. Grumpy Gills, Jr. says about you!! Come here and give me a hug you religious nutty feminazi you!

Now who is Mr. Grumpy Gills Jr.?

[kinvoya]

gedanken

What do this mean, mister?

Mr. Grumpy Gills, Jr. = Nick.

[wichita]

A gedanken experiment is a thought experiment...gedanken being derived from the German language. Sorry, thought that would be universally understood. Did my enormous mind get in the way?

[BadMonkey]

There is a wise saying in the Bible, whether you want to accept it as the Divinely Inspired Words of a Creator God or not, that says one should not consider things too great for his mind to handle. I find a lot of truth in this proverb (actually it is ina psalm ), and the world would be a happier place if a few more people would too.

Isn't that basically just telling people to not start thinking above themselves and to stop trying to improve?

People should always think of things their mind cannot handle. A personal favourite of mine is trying to imagine nothingness, say if the universe never existed. It hurts my mind because the situation I am trying to imagine is one which could not in any way be observed by my mind.

But despite that, it puts things into perspective.

People not considering things they cannot handle just creates mindless drones.

[Nick]

hmm, seems i shouldn't trust school as much as i alredy do.

maby, just maby, you should think of Evolution like gravaty. gravaty has survived, though many people, intelectually strong, weak, or wanting to be strong, but somtimes needs to look somthing up(me) has tried to tell people the need more proof, or that they are just crazy. so evolution will probably survive no matter what people say becous of bull hededness.

MY LAST POST HERE BEFORE I JUST CEEP ON QUOTING.

OMG, are you saying you don't believe in gravity?
Dude, that's hilarious.

[BadMonkey]

OMG, are you saying you don't believe in gravity?
Dude, that's hilarious.

Well, to be fair, if he's 13 everything he has learned about gravity so far IS wrong....

[wichita]

I just think that more people should learn to take babysteps when it comes to thinking about stuff. It's not like we're expecting kindergarteners to be reading Tolstoy. You let them tackle The Little Engine That Could. Unfortunately, this trend doesn't continue to subjects like Evolution or politics often enough. There are certain people who do not belong anywhere near an intellectual conversation, anymore than I deserve to be on a construction site with a jackhammer.

[Stan]

Yeah, but you know it's not any more mature to beat up a 13 year old kid on the forums when he's trying to learn to debate and express his ideas in public. Sometimes a person could use a mentor instead of a "Football Coach" to kick him in the nuts every mistake he makes.

[BadMonkey]

I just think that more people should learn to take babysteps when it comes to thinking about stuff. It's not like we're expecting kindergarteners to be reading Tolstoy. You let them tackle The Little Engine That Could. Unfortunately, this trend doesn't continue to subjects like Evolution or politics often enough. There are certain people who do not belong anywhere near an intellectual conversation, anymore than I deserve to be on a construction site with a jackhammer.

Well there's no doubt about that. The education is set up that way purposely. The quickest example is learning Newtonian physics at about 13. Even though it's wrong, it makes it a lot easier to understand Einsteinian physics when you get to it. This is true of all aspects.

The problem is that people don't go beyond that. You're given a little education evolution, but without further reading on your own part it might seem slightly farfetched. But once you take your study further you understand the How aswell as the What. But western civilisation, particularly the US, is working against itself and producing people who don't do this.

[wichita]

Yeah, but you know it's not any more mature to beat up a 13 year old kid on the forums when he's trying to learn to debate and express his ideas in public. Sometimes a person could use a mentor instead of a "Football Coach" to kick him in the nuts every mistake he makes.

I agree Stan, but I think we tried that for the first several weeks and he continued to poke the bear. And you all know once you get Nick started on a rant, it is impossible to make him stop.

The problem is that people don't go beyond that. You're given a little education evolution, but without further reading on your own part it might seem slightly farfetched. But once you take your study further you understand the How aswell as the What. But western civilisation, particularly the US, is working against itself and producing people who don't do this.

I whole heartedly agree. That is the main reason I still have my idealistic dreams of becoming an educator. It is the most important factor in building a strong democratic society yet is the primary thing being flushed down the proverbial crapper. I still hope I can begin helping to hold back the tide of ignorance in a few years....have to survive grad school first though!

[ephiroll]

Stay in school a few more years and you'll realise they just teach you a bunch of comlete nonsense in your early years.

Not just in the early years, but all the way through college, public schools only teach you want they want you to know, not all that there is to learn. To really learn something, it is nessacary to explore and study on your own by following your own interests. Of course, this requires self descipline, the ability of think for oneself, and the will to do more then the bare minimum to survive, so naturally few people do it.

[BadMonkey]

Not just in the early years, but all the way through college, public schools only teach you want they want you to know, not all that there is to learn. To really learn something, it is nessacary to explore and study on your own by following your own interests. Of course, this requires self descipline, the ability of think for oneself, and the will to do more then the bare minimum to survive, so naturally few people do it.

That was the point of a subsequent post...

[ephiroll]

*gets a couple toothpicks to prop open eyes with* Oops, yeah, there it is.

[rklenseth]

This from a great movie I have recently seen and pretty much sums up everything that is being discussed here;

"Believe in something, I don't care what it is, just BELIEVE."

Now bonus points for anyone that can tell me what movie that is quoted from and what character in that movie says this and to which character that it is said too.