Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

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Joshuamonkey
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Joshuamonkey » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:22 am

Thank you Seko. :) I think you're suggestion for combat while traveling would work, albiet complicated. I think it'd really only be complicated programming wise though, not for the characters involved, assuming that other characters would only see the characters in combat at the location that they would be if they were not in combat.

SekoETC wrote:I'm seeing a bit of a problem, if someone is attacked by a person with much better equipment while traveling and they're both online, you must acknowledge the attack, and you get a chance to retaliate but if you choose not to retaliate, would the first attacker still be allowed to hit you again and again?

Change of plan; if the attacked character doesn't attack back, then the attacker can't attack that character until 1 day passes. People shouldn't get penalized for checking their characters more often. This along with not being able to be handed healing food, work on projects, attack other characters, or move, should help discourage stalling.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Marian » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:14 am

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:
-A. My point is about sparring with people in different timezones, not smacking sleepers. Subsequently, I made the point that the new queued combat system will lead to an avoidance of interaction with players not currently awake. You yourself supported this point, by stating I should "pick someone who is awake, and spar ur heart out". Again, this will lead to a division of global communities, who before coexisted quite comfortably in a sparring culture.


I don't understand how sparring with someone under the new system will be any different that sparring with someone under the old system. You can hit them once a day either way, only now you'll have the chance to do it several times if they're active. If they're not active, nothing changes...so what's the big deal?


-C. So you are stating that rather than using tactics and stealth, you would prefer the -only- combat option is to tank up as much as possible, load up with 10 kilos of healing food, and stand out in the open, duking it out? What happened to RP there? That would only lead to more battle-axe fests, not less. There would be no variety, aside from a player getting to badly-rp getting gashed across the leg. Great, so you ruin the possibility of newer players surviving an encounter with a band of thugs, by using the guerrilla tactics you despise, but at least they can gasp out their dying breath. Your idea of a fair fight may very well be to stand toe-to-toe like Rock'em Sock'em Robots, and that's cool. But what about the character that is roleplaying an archer? Suddenly they have to act ooc and forego their natural inclination to attack from a distance, moving to find cover after their shot.


Making a lot of assumptions here, aren't you?

Meh, give me a combat system that depends on people being awake and participating over an OOC one that only works if the other player is logged off or their character not even in the same room any day.

The only thing I think really needs to be clarified more would be the whole attacking while traveling thing, it seems a little complicated and like it could lead to some weirdness. Maybe travel ticks should proceed like normal, with an attack being automatically processed once the defender moves out of range?
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Marian » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:16 am

This inability to edit posts (or use italics) is very annoying.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Drael » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:11 am

"an OOC one that only works if the other player is logged off or their character not even in the same room any day."

Bingo. Archers is a whole nother issue really, but theres no reason why the majority of all combat, if not simply all combat should occur in a clickfest of hit, flee assasin like tactics.

Even if such techniques are viable at all, or supported, they should not be the mainstay of combat. (hit and run, and drag and frag).
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby EchoMan » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:46 am

OT

Marian wrote:This inability to edit posts (or use italics) is very annoying.


Uncheck "Disable BBCode" below where you write the text when making a post. Or go to your forum settings and check "Enable BBCode", whichever isn't that way.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby cooldevo » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:11 pm

Joshuamonkey wrote:
cooldevo wrote:The biggest being that not everyone playing lives in the same time zone. I play with people from around the world, some are awake when I'm asleep and vice versa.

This is an example of why it's important for people to be given the chance to log on first.


You are right, and I'm not 100% against the new system. What I'm pointing out is that this could pose a major flaw in the new system. If I'm awake and my partner is attacked I can't undock. If the town has 4 or 5 or 6 or more people awake I have to accept and resolve every attack against me without being able to undock until he wakes up (which may not be for 5 or 6 real game hours). Perhaps it could work like a breaking a lock. You can't physically move into a vehicle, but if you are already in the vehicle you should be able to undock or drive off. Just like unlocking a lock that someone is trying to pick fails the lockpick attempt. At least it would give people like traders, explorers, and travelers a chance to get away. Otherwise people will likely start operating solo and no one will travel with another player because if they are asleep when you are awake and get attacked, you are as good as dead. Especially if allowing multiple attacks in one day for each player.

Joshuamonkey wrote:
cooldevo wrote:Instead it would make more sense, and be a lot more realistic if instead of counter-attacking or defending we also get an option to eat/drink.

Likely they will not be allowed to eat before the first attack, but should be for subsequent attacks that are initiated before you log on. It doesn't have so much to do with eating before they hit, but with eating after the last person is done. The reason I think this is important is because otherwise it would depend almost entirely on whether or not you were logged on and eating healing food between the attacks. With your suggestion happening to log on in time would still be a significant factor.


You are taking part of the suggestion the right way, but either I or you have missed part of it. For example, what would happen if you log on and have 3 queued up attacks against you? Would you have to accept the first one, then get a moment to 'heal', then resolve the second, get a chance to 'heal' again, and then resolve the third? That isn't very realistic and has no flow to combat. IMHO, when presented with each attack the player should get four options 1) Attack back (or whatever) 2) Defend 3) heal or energy (tea, food, potions etc), or 4) talk/whisper directly to attacker (which results in either canceling by attacker or finishing attack if I choose to surrender or give up my goods to them, and they choose to reject or accept offer).

This way I have to make a decision based on what I know about the attackers (assuming I can see who is attacking me, in what order, and what they are carrying), and plan out a strategy. For example, say three people decide to stack attacks against me while I was sleeping. I would have to choose whether I want to risk counter-attacking on my first attempt because the guy only has a bone shield and a long bow. The second guy may have steel weapons and a steel scutum in which case I'd choose to defend to help mitigate the damage he has the potential to cause (and with his steel scutum I'd likely deal little damage). The third guy may have a bone spear and iron shield in which case the damage from him would be minimal so I may choose to heal up from the damage done by the first 2 attacks and forfeit attacking or defending.

In most regular situations, I think a setup like this wouldn't be a bad idea.
Last edited by SekoETC on Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby SekoETC » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:14 pm

I think if there are two people in a boat, and one of them gets attacked, the second person who is not bound in combat should be allowed to undock, but undocking will only be processed after combat has been resolved. People in town will be allowed to initiate combat on the second person but these combats will fizzle if the boat undocks, because the undocking happened before the attacks were initiated, even though the undocking is only resolved after the other person's combat is resolved.

Also I think it should calculate how far the ship would've sailed at full speed if undocking had occurred when the button was first clicked, and the ship should be allowed to jump to any spot inside a circle with a radius equal to that calculated distance, but the direction would be shown like wakes are so that people ashore would know which way the boat went even if landed outside the viewing circle.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby viktor » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:52 am

How about hits go automatic like they do now, no delays, but the fatal hit, the person doesn't die on the spot, they get to login and say their last words and then die, gives more chance for rp, and also takes care of the problem with these frozen combat matrix style thing. This allows for sparring as we currently do it. I mean the whole reason you wanted this was so people could rp their last words or something right? well this works in both favors.

If you want to give multiple hits per target and want to tinker around with tiredness, how about you make each weapon give a different amount of tiredness, give them a multiplier in the tiredness calculation (i would imagine this would be the easiest way to program it). Heavier weapons make you more tired, swords are more tiring than bows by weight but bows are heavier which balances, and it gives light weapons an actual advantage besides being cheap.

Dragging as is, is very good, weak people get dragged easily by strong people, strong or equal strength people need to be dragged by a team, time to do that is dependant upon how long it takes for the team to wake. to change dragging, the most i can see is changing the tiredness from 2% to 3 or 4%, that small increase will have a noticeable effect, if you want to drag someone just a couple times and then if you wanted to drag another, you're really getting tired, nevermind energy to hit anyone.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby cooldevo » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:06 pm

SekoETC wrote:I think if there are two people in a boat, and one of them gets attacked, the second person who is not bound in combat should be allowed to undock, but undocking will only be processed after combat has been resolved. People in town will be allowed to initiate combat on the second person but these combats will fizzle if the boat undocks, because the undocking happened before the attacks were initiated, even though the undocking is only resolved after the other person's combat is resolved.


The second part of your post I fully agree with, and will not speak to.

For the quoted part, unless I have misread it, I do agree with your essential point, and it is a good framework to start running with. The problem I still have is that if I am awake, I cannot undock until combat is resolved against my sleeping partner. However, in order for me to survive, I have to essentially log off and go to sleep in order to stop processing attacks against me if we are allowed multiple hits per person. But then, when my partner wakes up he can't undock either because I have a whole bunch of queued attacks on me. Maybe could it be changed that you cannot attack someone in a boat (for example) with a melee weapon. Ranged may be a different story, but if I am on a galleon and someone is on the dock could they be expected to hit me with a sword? Maybe if they tossed it at me, but then they'd lose it. In a more real sense, they'd have to board the boat in order to attack me. If locked they'd have to try to break the lock to get to me. And that doesn't really change combat much because in the old system I could still undock even if someone tried to attack me.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Joshuamonkey » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:11 pm

Seko, I think your idea could work.
cooldevo, what Seko is saying is that the other person can undock, but the boat won't actually leave until the attacks are resolved. Once this happens, then all attacks on the other person will be canceled unless they happened before they clicked "undock."
I don't think anyone not in the boat should be able to initiate combat with anyone in the boat after someone in the boat has chosen to undock. Then, once the attacks are resolved, the boat undocks. This also would mean that no one in the boat would be able to attack anyone outside of the boat once they have chosen to undock.
cooldevo wrote:1) Attack back (or whatever) 2) Defend 3) heal or energy (tea, food, potions etc), or 4) talk/whisper directly to attacker (which results in either canceling by attacker or finishing attack if I choose to surrender or give up my goods to them, and they choose to reject or accept offer).

2) No defend. They do that anyway. We don't need to discourage people from attacking back. Besides, they can usually chose to attack them anyway after the combat is resolved.
3) We're probably going to not allow people to heal between attacks.
4) People would likely use this option to stall. We don't want combat to take longer than is necessary. The attacker has already decided to attack. It would just be silly to allow the other character to beg to not be attacked before allowing the attack to go through.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby EchoMan » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:10 pm

All these special cases will be horrible to implement.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Joshuamonkey » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:41 pm

EchoMan wrote:All these special cases will be horrible to implement.

Well, Seko suggested it. :P
I can't think of a better way, unless we just decide not to care about it. For example, I don't think having the boat be in the same place it would be if they had started putting the boat in a direction is really necessary.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Marian » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:47 pm

Since we obviously don't have enough horribly complicated special cases yet, just throwing this out there.

There's been talk about 'lack of strategy' and what not, and it's true that the new system won't do anything to fix the current problem with there being only a couple of worthwhile weapons, so how combining the 'delayed resolution' thing with weapon variety?

This would be sort of similar to my suggestion about different shields meaning an attack would autoprocess faster, except in this case it would be different weapons, with a speed bonus to some of the lighter, lower end ones like knives and bagh-nakhs, so in the long run they could be viable in a fight (at least against someone who isn't responding). (As in, you could hit maybe three times with a knife in the same time it takes to hit once with a battleaxe.)
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Joshuamonkey » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:51 pm

Marian wrote:This would be sort of similar to my suggestion about different shields meaning an attack would autoprocess faster, except in this case it would be different weapons, with a speed bonus to some of the lighter, lower end ones like knives and bagh-nakhs, so in the long run they could be viable in a fight (at least against someone who isn't responding). (As in, you could hit maybe three times with a knife in the same time it takes to hit once with a battleaxe.)

This has been considered already, and doesn't solve the main problem. The combat change isn't just (or necessarily) a delayed resolution. It means that the defender must log in before the attack completes, or unless 1 day passes. This is the main part of the whole suggestion.
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Re: Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

Postby Doug R. » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:26 pm

I suggest leaving this thread open for another 24 hours, then locking it. The GAB will consider the issues raised here and reformulate the proposed system if necessary, then post the revised version.

The biggest concerns raised (imo):

-Combat on roads/sea (and fleeing onto roads/sea)
-Stalling
-Dragging
-what actions to allow during combat

Things that are not problems (imo):

-Sparring - since it seems that we're leaning towards allowing projects to be worked on while combat is occurring, then the combat change is irrelevant to sparring. Unresolved attacks will not hinder a character's other work. Also, when skills are rewritten, we will undoubtedly include new ways to train strength and fighting ability.

Intriguing suggestions made in this thread:

-tiredness based on weapon

I'm sure there are concerns and intriguing suggestions in this thread that are not posted here. This is my summary based on reading the entire thread in sequence.

The best use of time for the last 24 hours would be alternative suggestions for road/sea combat. Seko's idea would work, but would be very time-consuming to code. Simpler is better if it's possible.
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