Religion

[Dee]

Dee, just out of curiousity, do only Muslims fall under the category of 'believers'(when determining who stays in Hell and for how long)? Or do all people's of the book count? Because you said something earlier about how Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

I can't say who falls under the category of believers, only God has the right to say that. If you're a good person, believe in God, and have never harmed anyone, then that might make you a believer. And for the record, also Jewish people believe in the same God.

And don't you think that if you'd been born in Egypt, you'd be Muslim? Are there any Mormons in the Middle East anywhere? I don't know, but I'd guess there aren't many. You see, people take on the religion that they were taught as a child. Often, if someone of authority (mom, dad, etc.) tells us something, we take it as truth. And since we can't be experts at everything, we are susceptible to believing in things and ideas that aren't true.

Not necessarily. I myself have questioned my beliefs many times as I said before. And I know A LOT of people who don't even believe in God here in Egypt, particularly one who is a very good friend of mine, and would have been the boyfriend of my sister if he had more time to tell her that he loved her (she loved him too ) So, it's not necessary that you automatically believe in the same relegion as your parents.

I know exactly how the world's going to end. Well, not exactly, but pretty close. I know that when Christ comes again the world will be embroiled in war between the alliance of Israel and Zion and everyone else. I know that there will be something capable of reducing men to ash in the blink of an eye (nuclear weapons are a popular theory). I know that America will lose ground to foreign invaders (presumably for the first time, unless foreign invasion occurs before WWIII) until the army employs the 'boys from the mountains'(residents of Utah) at which point the playing field will be leveled and America will begin to reclaim captured territory. That's pretty thorough.

Some theories say that if China is the next world's Super Power then the world has ended. China is very powerful, and there are two people (Ya'jouj and Ma'jouj) they were mentioned in the Qur'an, I think they live undert the Great Wall of China, and as time goes by, the times of their appearance become closer and closer. I personally believe very much in this theory.

[Nixit]

Now, God knows us all extremely well. If, based on what he knows of us, he figures out that person A will not pray, than he doesn't program into the Earth 'do X thing for person A'. If he figures that person A will pray, he does program into the Earth 'do X thing for person A'. And he's never been wrong.

If this is true Nalaris, then Pie is wrong? Because he said that we all have free will, but that does not seem much like free will.


Pie Wrote:

CARBON DATING is bunk. You guys don't know SQUAT about earths age, and no Carbon Dating "System" Is going to be able to find out. Thus, you have no basis to the earths age. Or anythings age, for that matter. And thus, we can rule out evolution, becous evolution needs time, and we just don't have that much time on the earth.

Regardless of whether Carbon Dating is 'bunk (I don't believe that but haven't done enough research on it to prove you wrong),' that does not rule out evolution. If carbon dating wasn't right, that doesn't mean that the age of the earth is automatically much shorter than what Carbon dating says. For all you know, it could be even older!


And you seem to use this bug thing in the stomach as a reason that scientists are brainwashed.
a) That's only one scenario and doesn't necessarily prove anything.
b) You seem to generalize scientists as one whole group and it sounds like you are saying that every scientist didn't believe this bug thing.
c) They believe it now, right? Perhaps there wasn't sufficient evidence when this concept was first opened to the world... and often times concepts that change many things (I don't know if this qualifies as one though) are often not accepted at FIRST, because it goes against many previous things, but that is not because they are brainwashed. It is simply because there have been things earlier that have been made scientifically solid that don't mix with this new idea... however, scientists usually realize later (usually with MORE evidence) that there, in fact, are bugs in the stomach.

All in all, I don't think you have much grounds to say that scientists are brainwashed (maybe some are, but some people in every profession are most likely), but I don't think that others have much grounds to say that people in religion are brainwashed (obviously some are though).

[Antichrist_Online]

I have to give you one point on carbon dating pie, and that is fire will effect the date. However in the only case I know of it made a tapestry from a church after a fire appear younger than we know it was. (Higher ratio of C14 than expected) so if the Earths fires have that effect the world is even older than it says, but as I've said, it's just one thing that shows the same as many other techniques, and try reading information on techniques from atleast two sites, that site you posted was very biased and though somethings were true, most were out of date arguments. The point on the variable nature of radiocarbon dating, which is only really good for 'recent' objects, but radiometric dating using Zircon, Argon or Uranium is much much more useful. There is also stuff in there which is down right lies about scientists selecting things that give good results, this occurs in rare cases but is easily discovered, and there is alot of missinformation in there, especially about supernovas and Phase 0 stars.

[Nalaris]

Nixit: First off, thank you for giving out logical counters to Pie's points. It's refreshing. Second off, as to the question of free will, let me give you an example. Let's say you know a person really well, and know that their favorite color is read, and that assuming it's just a normal situation and someone asks that person 'what's your favorite color?', then you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will answer 'red.' or 'my favorite color is red' or 'I like red' or something like that. You didn't force them to answer that they liked red, but you did know they would do it. That's how God is. He doesn't force us to do anything, but he knows us well enough that he can program the world in advance for us. Does that answer your question?

Anti: I'm pretty sure that one Heavenly day has been approximated to about one billion years. So when God made the Earth in seven days, it may have in fact been seven billion years, the first three billion having been erased by fire. Maybe. I must admit, Pie's claims seem slightly paranoid and misinformed, but at least he did his homework (it's not his fault the internet lied to him).

[Nixit]

No problem. As for the free will, I understand that. But didn't God essentially make us all (according to your beliefs, that is)? And so, obviously he knows how we are going to act, right? But given that he knows us so well, and he has already "programmed" these things in the future, it's essentially our destiny to reach that point and so on, following God's plan: because, he created us.

And it's not necessarily Pie's fault that he's misinformed, but it was not the internet as a whole that lied to him, because there are certainly many other sources on the internet. He seemed to be content with the information that presumably was given to him, and did not think to search for other counters. Still, some props must be given to him, no doubt.

[Pie]

Now, God knows us all extremely well. If, based on what he knows of us, he figures out that person A will not pray, than he doesn't program into the Earth 'do X thing for person A'. If he figures that person A will pray, he does program into the Earth 'do X thing for person A'. And he's never been wrong.

Could you explain this a little more? It kinda sounds like you are saying that everyone who prays gets good things from God and everyone who doesn't gets nothing. We all know this isn't true, of course. I just woke up so maybe I'm misreading, tho.

I personally am not capable of and will never worship any person, place or thing in this lifetime. I can't even quite figure out what worshiping is all about. I think that the belief that a God or gods require worship from humans is just the sillyest thing imaginable. I would like to add here, however, that I have great respect and even some envy for devoutly religious people...those who aren't hurting other people.

For me it seems that any creater God who might exist does not care at all about our physical beings. Seeing the nightmarish things that happen to so many innocent people this can only be true. If not then God is a real jerk. Evil exists but only in the minds of damaged men and women and in the indifference and cruelty of nature.

"Evolution loves death more than it loves you or me." Annie Dillard

If a creator regards us at all I believe it is for our spiritual aspect and not for our physical ins and outs (heh). If we do bad things to people, animals, the earth, the atmosphere, etc. then we damage our spirits. This is what God sees like a neon light, not how many times we went to church or prayed or didn't have sex or whatever.

I too have felt instances of transcental oneness with all creation...for no reason at all, just out of the blue. For me this seemed more like some cosmological connection between all matter than a relationship with God. I've also felt de ja vu (spelling? sorry) and I'm told it is a wacky brain chemical mixup. Some studies have shown that deeply religious people have a particular kind of chemical makeup in their brains which predisposes them to religious belief. I've also noticed that a lot of ex-addicts become deeply religious. Something must be going on there.

Just some barely awake musings.

First off, before i respond to kinvoya, I must say, the reason I didn't go to other sites when I posted that site is becaus.... I'm to lazy. Also, He created us, yes. Our whole point in life is to come closer to god(acording to my religion) But, god gave us free will. Ass nalaris said, he dosen't force us to do things. He just knows everything, he is the Alpha and the omega, the begining and the end.

And now to Kinvoya. Thats the magic of it all. God knows everything, he is omni-powerful, omni-science. "I am that I am" Sais the lord all mighty, to moses. He dosen't need anything frome us, but still, he loves us(I posted this before, haven't I?) And he wants worship, becous he wants afection, atention, conection. Becous he loves us, just as a father loves his children. And becous of that, he wan'ts us to be good.and what father would wan't his children to go to hell, becous of sins?

And now to AoM. heh. You know, there was something to that afect in the site I wen't to. It said about a log in some lava. And thus, the wood was younger, and the lava was older.There was also this other thing, they did this test apon the rubble below mount rushmore, and some lava flow that happened in 1950 or something, and the lava-flow was bilions older than the rubble. HEAT DOES EFFECT CARBON-14 levels.

Another thing. Rocks... aren't mesured with carbon-14 levels, there measured with isotope, ore something(I don't really know, but It's carbon-14 levels, becous rocks don't have Carbon-14 in them... I'm pretty sure.)

But one thing I don't understand, is how they could get differen't Isotop conditions frome differen't rocks. The rocks were made when the univers was created(I have said this before...) And that makes the age of the world Inconclusive acording to even Isotope Analysation, becous of heat changes, weather and everything els on the face of the earth that contaminated that object.

Nalarus: You must remember, that god didn't write genesis. Adam and eve did. And If god didn't know that he lived in a differen't timestream, and if he didn't translate what he did corectly to adam and eve... well, that just makes god ungodlike. and I certanly can see no way that god could have made the entier univers, programed it in its intierty, know about all our favorites, our entier lives, and still make such a mistake as this. Another thing, is that why would god need to use evolution to make this? God usis nature when he wan'ts too, and he usis divine intervention other times. I, for one, think(at least now i do... other debates do not apply) That god simply made one specis, and then he made others based apon that one, and continued up the "evolutionary chain". it makes since, dosent it?

And now, I must go away. I will get to everyone elses posts later.

[Antichrist_Online]

Simple question to everyone here:

What's more believable? A perfect god making an imperfect oragnism that has to be replaced every so often because the environment changes Or a perfect god making an organism that isn't quite perfect at any one point but is able to change itself to strive for it's own perfection in that given environment?

[Pie]

number 1 and 2.

And plus... 99% of the animals on the earth are icstinct. you know, they aren't here anymore.(Just explaining "Icstinct") So, God did make some organisms that can't change well enough to survive.

And... Well, were here, so that's your 2.

[Nixit]

Pie - you haven't responded to my response.

And I don't quite understand, AntiChrist - what point were you making there?

[Dee]

I didn't understand Anti's question either...

[west]

Simple question to everyone here:

What's more believable? A perfect god making an imperfect oragnism that has to be replaced every so often because the environment changes Or a perfect god making an organism that isn't quite perfect at any one point but is able to change itself to strive for it's own perfection in that given environment?

I think he's pointing out that "intelligent design" would imply that the creatures God created were perfect. And biologically that's a load of rubbish. Therefore, if there is a God you'd prefer the second option, an organism that isn't quite perfect at any one point but is able to change itself to strive for its own perfection, etc.

[Antichrist_Online]

That's basically it west, but I wanted to know what people actually thought without biasing it with Creationism or evolution, trying to keep it hypothetical and failing miserably.

[Nixit]

Ah! I understand. Interesting.

[Dee]

Oh... I think it's the second option.... Too sleepy to explain

[Joshuamonkey]

And plus... 99% of the animals on the earth are icstinct. you know, they aren't here anymore.(Just explaining "Icstinct") So, God did make some organisms that can't change well enough to survive.

It's extinct.