Skill system rewrite - Seko/Doug ideas

[AlchemicRaker]

Having your skills increase faster while working with a master sounds like a much more interesting and natural way.

So someone with a higher skill than me, in the work we are doing, joining any one of my projects will make me increase my skill faster - including anyone else's under them?

What if A had expert in our work, I had average, and B had awkward:
Would B benefit from both of us or just A?

If someone's skill was naturally higher (they spawned that way) have them be better teachers so they train others faster?

[Piscator]

Well, the idea is that you would watch the master at work and learn a few tricks that way. By that logic I think it would be sensible that you'd recieve a learning bonus proportional to the difference between your skill level and that of the best participant, but that might make learning too easy as learning groups could be as large as project size limits allow, without decreasing the idividual gain.

[trojo]

Well, the idea is that you would watch the master at work and learn a few tricks that way. By that logic I think it would be sensible that you'd recieve a learning bonus proportional to the difference between your skill level and that of the best participant, but that might make learning too easy as learning groups could be as large as project size limits allow, without decreasing the idividual gain.

It could be argued that this isn't a big deal since a large "class" of apprentices under the same master wouldn't be all that useful, and therefore not unbalancing. So now the town has five tailors instead of two. Is that really unbalancing? (If combat skills could be trained this way it would, but this of course only affects non-combat skills). In addition, the more people working on a project, the faster it will be finished, with proportionately fewer ticks/skillups. This indirectly limits individual skill gain per project.

[Drael]

Problem with teaching is that if a military/warrior group/dictatorship gets a good number of expert older teachers, they can then just churn out even higher numbers of fighting skills to their newspawns. (Yes would be good for RP but....)

Part of the reason for this suggestion is the overemphasis by players on the fighting skill. That isnt solved by introducing teaching. Its solves a great deal of problems, such as the character nerfing, but it doesnt deal with the root cause of the problem, the skill itself.

The only way to solve this problem is to break the fighting skill up into further skills.

Which is why we have been discussing fighting styles (ranged, melee, hand-to-hand), and traits/attributes (Strength, dexterity, agility/speed, Endurance). By making all these extra variables, it is no longer a matter of simply wanting a high fighting skill anymore - you simply use whatever advatange you have.

By using a points system (could be randomly generated rather than player chosen), the levels of all such variables will be essentially equal across players, which avoids the problem of inequality.

If your against choosing, because its too cookie cutter, use points but make it random. (Though I prefer choosing, it allows for RP character defination)

The great thing about this system is it will diversify combat, and the use of different types of weapons becomes much more important, as well as the fact that it will help with non-combat skills, making your project choices more fitting for the character and consistent (if you arent strong, or have lots of endurance, you shouldnt weild a battleaxe, or dig a hole without finding it hard and doing badly)

At the moment skills are tied only to themselves. They are a pure abstraction because your character might be a weak skinny midget, but for some reason hes got a high building, digging skill. Its totally inconsistant and unexplainable.

And if it were a matter of learning, that still ignores character nature.

In fact, an IQ attribute would also add alot to game realism. With it, we could ensure mental retards cant easily build a circuit board, or a car engine. And having town tech heads would be rad. (If any build project is ever going to be denied to someone, it should be because of either their skill level in the area, or their IQ IMO)

Plus the skills at the moment are totally weird. Like what kind of skill is digging? And why is building that seperate from boat building, or making a iron hammer, so different from a weapon? (Ie there is no "spill-over" for related skills). Why are "machines" regarded as a skill type? (Shouldnt it be divided based on the kind of machine, such as electronic, carpentry - and carpentry should replace building/wooden machines/wooden weapons). Some strange shit those skills we have. Suggest: Smithing, carpentry and so on instead. Okay sort of OT, but the current system is pretty wack...

[AlchemicRaker]

I wouldn't mind removing strength entirely... and removing fighting too. Maybe leave hunting as a skill, but have all PvP fighting be on even terms (let the players choose to make weaker attacks if they wish to RP). The purpose of game mechanics is to aid in the RP of a society simulator. If the immature tendencies of players (not all, but enough) can't handle the strength and fighting skills, then I'd vote right now to have them removed from the existing system, just replace those numbers with some constant average numbers.

- Natso

[Drael]

^well thats the freeform RPG solution Cant say I like it, but it works (Not that if you do this, people will often RP making weaker attacks!). I prefer the simulation solution because it solves other problems of inconsistant RP etc at the same time. (Whether its fighting or drinking wine, IMO if there is a simulating mechanic it saves much RP awkwardness. Plus even with high grade freeform RP, theres still often muck ups in this area). I guess its a question of who you think this game is for....

[AlchemicRaker]

^well thats the freeform RPG solution Cant say I like it, but it works (Not that if you do this, people will often RP making weaker attacks!)

Of course. I don't like it either. But if you can't fix the root problem (the immaturity), you can at least discourage them by removing the temptation. Also, we could put a note by the 80% mark (and make it default) and say thats the average strength, for those who actually care to RP.

- Natso

[Ryaga]

There are some pretty immature violent people in real life too Natso. So it doesn't really effect the simulator side of things.

[AlchemicRaker]

There are some pretty immature violent people in real life too Natso. So it doesn't really effect the simulator side of things.

IRL, people don't get to spawn scum until they are born with stats they like. Disabling Strength and Fighting simply gives spawn scummers less incentive. (Borrowing terms from nethack... spawn scumming is restarting your character until he ends up with good stats and gear)

- Natso

[returner]

DEFINITELY NOT WRITING LIKE THIS!!!!

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. The core of the suggestion (not the last bit about spending points etc., which I strongly disagree with btw) is just a new way of assigning skills to newspawns, which is far from a major rewrite. It would have global consequences, yes, but other changes had that before. It's in any case nothing worth shutting this game down and spending the next two years on writing Cantr III.

Neither is option 1 an option, as the premise is fundamentally wrong. Predicting the death of Cantr to be 2-5 years from now is pure speculation (the world didn't end on day 2310 either) and patching the game to death is also no neccessity. I'd much rather see sensible structural improvement of the game mechanics, like this suggeston.

Lol, it grabbed your attention!

Anyway, my point was simple. We've been here, done this before! We've re-written the skills system. It is still flawed.

So, what now? Look at why.

Why? External factors, the environment which skills sit in. The ability to barricade. The lock system. The health system. Obviously when you talk about skills, you talk about production in Cantr, and you also talk about combat.
And these are all intricately linked to other systems, which are failing slightly (ie animals and combat). So we can either patch each one individually (which has failed, mind you.. animal patch failed, causing lag.. skill system rewrite (the original) failed, and now we're looking at it again).

So again I'll go back to my point. We can't focus on just the skills, as they've failed before and will fail again. We need to focus on Cantr in general, and looking at the other systems to make sure they are compatible with this new suggestion. (and if not, re-writing them too).

So as you can see, I simply thought it easiest to leave it as it is and begin work on discussing a total game rewrite... AKA CANTR III.

[BZR]

Writing like this didn't make me read more the first two sentences of your post, so you failed.

Anyway, I thought that I'm not new to Cantr, but I don't know which rewriting you are talking about. Could you explain?

[returner]

Anyway, I thought that I'm not new to Cantr, but I don't know which rewriting you are talking about. Could you explain

When awkward to expert was introduced.

Writing like this didn't make me read more the first two sentences of your post, so you failed.

*shrugs* Your loss.

[Ronja Rotschopf]

I wouldn't mind removing strength entirely... and removing fighting too. Maybe leave hunting as a skill, but have all PvP fighting be on even terms (let the players choose to make weaker attacks if they wish to RP). The purpose of game mechanics is to aid in the RP of a society simulator. If the immature tendencies of players (not all, but enough) can't handle the strength and fighting skills, then I'd vote right now to have them removed from the existing system, just replace those numbers with some constant average numbers.

- Natso

of all old and new suggestions about fighting I like this one most

[Piscator]

Well, it's the opposite for me. Seems like the solution is worse than the problem.

If everybody started with the same skills, I don't see why somebody who spent 10 years with training shouldn't have an advantage in a fight over someone who spent that time digging potatoes.

[Snake_byte]

then I'd vote right now to have them removed from the existing system, just replace those numbers with some constant average numbers.

SO put it to how it was before skills when we were all equal and I'm not quite getting how fighting is immature... I guess all who fight must be?