Religion

[the_antisocial_hermit]

The concept that someone can change reality just by having personal beliefs is inane. I can no more change right and wrong by believing hard enough than I can change the laws of physics. I can manipulate the laws of physics, learn and use them, and can do the same to morality, but by simply believing that I can fly I will not spontaneously gain the ability to fly. I can build an airplane, but I cannot just fly.

I didn't say change reality. Nothing in my post was about changing reality and what one can physically do like fly or walk on water. It was about the belief in something spiritual giving people hope and that hope being realized.

But I know whay they do is wrong and hope fervently that they'll stop doing it. 100% of all homosexuals who went to therapy for their homosexually became heterosexual.

That is a crock of BS. Where are the studies that show that? And what have I said before about "proof"? You cannot "prove" anything. I know therapy didn't help my friend in high school. He still struggles with accepting who he is and therapists didn't help one jot. It didn't help my uncle either. They both tried therapy because they felt they were wrong. One has accepted himself, the other still struggles. Oh, wait, and another friend of mine had some therapy too. Didn't change him. Don't spill BS unless you've got studies and gathered accounts from every single homosexual that ever went to a therapist. When every single one of them is tracked down and they say they became heterosexual because of therapy, maybe you'll have your 100%. You'll probably miss someone though. Try it, you won't find 100% in any study. Unless of course it's a bad study that has been manipulated to do what the researcher wants. Even those researchers are smart enough to know that 100% won't fly and wouldn't try to set it up that way.

I think I may have found out why I appear to be the only one who's capable of maintaining only one character in Cantr. The rest of you, apparently, have no willpower to resist the carnal insticts which, if fully given into, would tear our society apart. Fortunately society at large is not made up of cantr adicts and therefore has the willpower to make laws that appeal to a basic instinct: fear.

Take yourself off your throne for a minute. I'm sure there are several other people that have more than one character. Just because we enjoy having more than one doesn't mean we don't have willpower. There's more to willpower than being able to refrain from playing more than one character in a game.

A lot of you have provided evidence that homosexuality is natural. Did any of these findings come from websites that were formed for the purpose of science, and not the defence of homosexuality? Because I've never, ever, ever heard of a homosexual animal. Ever.

You seem to have a lot of "facts" from "studies" (or not, you didn't state any sort of study for that 100% up there) that you can't seem to back up. Did you think about using an actual scholarly journal rather than websites? Websites of any kind are dubious. What happened to going to a library and looking through a journal? A scholarly journal, mind you, not some popular journal like Time. Or heck, even use a textbook! OMG! What a thought! Using actual resources instead of internet diarrhea! Not that there aren't good sites out there, but honestly, get more than just websites. At least go to some databases and get full text articles that come from good journals.

[west]

Just...just stop talking, Pie. Honestly. Or at least take the time to know what you're talking about. Please? You don't listen to what we post, you don't even follow the chain of conversation, you just post the same things over and over again filled with faulty logic and vague "i can't back this up but it's true" sentiments, and you expect anyone to take you seriously?

There are so many things wrong with your latest post that I'm not even going to bother correcting them. Because you're not going to listen anyway.

Then you cannot, in all honesty, say that it is wrong. We cannot rule out and indeed, until you provide evidence to the contrary we should believe that you are incapable of arguing against him.

And pointing out his bad spelling is not only bad form, but further evidence that you're incapable of debating against him.


The concept that someone can change reality just by having personal beliefs is inane. I can no more change right and wrong by believing hard enough than I can change the laws of physics. I can manipulate the laws of physics, learn and use them, and can do the same to morality, but by simply believing that I can fly I will not spontaneously gain the ability to fly. I can build an airplane, but I cannot just fly.

I don't condemn homosexuals. But I know whay they do is wrong and hope fervently that they'll stop doing it. 100% of all homosexuals who went to therapy for their homosexually became heterosexual.

I think I may have found out why I appear to be the only one who's capable of maintaining only one character in Cantr. The rest of you, apparently, have no willpower to resist the carnal insticts which, if fully given into, would tear our society apart. Fortunately society at large is not made up of cantr adicts and therefore has the willpower to make laws that appeal to a basic instinct: fear.

This, of course, is a theory and is, as of yet, utterly unconfirmed. I myself put no faith in it, but it's worth stating. The other possibility is that for some reason cantr just doesn't appeal to me in the same way it does others...

Meh.

A lot of you have provided evidence that homosexuality is natural. Did any of these findings come from websites that were formed for the purpose of science, and not the defence of homosexuality? Because I've never, ever, ever heard of a homosexual animal. Ever.

I will gladly point out the fallacies in everything Pie stated. I just don't have the energy/time right now. Also, my hedonist self is drunk. So there.

Also, most of the studies cited were scientific, not from a pro-homosexual point of view. If we based our opinions on what Nalaris knows, well, I guess science wouldn't be at the point it is now.

Much love,
westerly.

[Mykey]

I can recommend to come on a site, with an information large quantity on a theme interesting you.

[west]

Gladly. Just give me a bit. Real life intrudes.

[KiNG KiLL]

No, let Nalaris speak. It's the bizarre opinions that are interesting to hear. Why someone really thinks homosexuality is something you can cure with therapy. I would like to hear more. Why should he be made to shut up? Pie on the other hand may have interesting opinions, but isn't very good at making his point clear. If he works on that, I will be glad to listen to what he has to say... or is Pie a "she" by the way? You know I don't handle english very good either, but I think most of you understands my points anyway.

I might create flames now, and I honestly don't mean any disrespect to those of you who believe or have "faith". But... I doubt that anyone of you have ever seen, heard, smelled or felt any divine presence. I am certain that all your beliefs is entirely based on your society, and therefore your faith is a part of the culture you live in. Not because God or Jesus or Allah or Seaman has made any contact with you. You may have read about these guys (why are they all male I wonder? Because of the societies we live in are almost entirely run by men?)... but that alone can't possibly make you believe in them. I hope.

I don't want people who are happy with what they are or what they believe should be forced or talked into altering their lives. That's not it at all. I just don't want anyone of you in charge of something important. You are not very far from people who are considered crazy. It may sound harsh, I know. But think about it. If I say that I believe in Seaman who rules the enitre oceans with his little mermaids at his side... wouldn't you call me crazy? I think you would. Now you know how it feels for us non-believers when someone speaks of God or Jesus saying stuff, either directly to a person or by writings. Preferably in the bible. The no.1 best-selling book of all time. Perhaps someone will believe in Seaman one day. At least he lives in the sea, not in heaven.

[Nixit]

Okay, I was wrong, you're right... They did have relegions!!

But they don't know the things we know today... They certainly didn't see it how we see it now.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make.

[Antichrist_Online]

Small side point on the all male god thing. That could be put down to early monotheists choosing the most powerful person in their culture as a reference point. The main god I believe in is female, but likewise that is probably just a personification due to environment, if anything the gods are more likely to be hermaphrodite, if there is no reproduction, why is there need for gender?

[Gender]

why is there need for gender?

Don't question my very existence!

[Stan]

But... I doubt that anyone of you have ever seen, heard, smelled or felt any divine presence. I am certain that all your beliefs is entirely based on your society, and therefore your faith is a part of the culture you live in. Not because God or Jesus or Allah or Seaman has made any contact with you.

You don't know what you're talking about.

How do you know what I've experienced personally? Are you such a wise and intelligent man that a guy like me...a Christian...can't possibly be a thinker such as you?

If you knew much about my background, my education, my career, etc, you would realize I'm not some slap that believes what the masses think. Your arrogance and belief that you know everything is a stumbling block to your potential to experience and "feel" God's presence.

Just as an FYI, it was only in the past 5 or 6 years that I could "feel" God's presence and effect in my life. It was after I looked for such a presence that I could detect it and recognize it. Before that I was like you and didn't feel it. A good comparison would be radio waves...if God was sending out a radio wave but you didn't have a radio tuned in to the channel God was broadcasting on you wouldn't "sense" it.

God's broadcasting a strong signal, you're just not tuned in.

Don't tell a guy that has the channel locked in and can hear the music that the channel doesn't exist. Like I said before, you don't know what you're talking about.

[Gender]

Faithfull people will not convince rationalistic people, because there is no scientific proof of god's existence.

Rational people will not convice the faithfull people that it is not rational to belive, because the faithfull do not need to follow this kind of reasoning. The very core of faith is to belive without proof.
"Blessed are the ones, that belived without seeing" or something like that.

The convert somebody from faithfull to rational or from rational to faithfull is to change the way he/she thinks.

BTW. I do think, that discussion is neccessary. I have such kind of discussions in my home, with my wife-to-be.

[Stan]

It is good to have that conversation to be sure.

As far as Faith and Rationalization, I agree with you and disagree with you.

I am a very "rational" person which is why it took me so long to completely believe or understand God's existence. To me God existed but didn't interact with people very regularly. Sure he would do miracles sometimes, etc, but I didn't think God was necessarily relevant to me until I felt God's presence and an unmistakable prodding.

My background is in Mechanical Engineering and I strongly rely on data and observation as my basis of belief and action. I don't know if Jesus is "provable" or not, frankly.

There have been texts written through the ages that apparently has proven God's existence to many or it would have faded away. Is there anything that can be proven to everyone? I doubt it.

I know my personal experience is real. I can't expect someone who has not experienced what I have to understand, hell, I didn't until I experienced it. That being said, any person who "KNOWS" what another person has experienced or "KNOWS" that God does not exist is fooling themselves. They are being irrational NOT rational. There is absolutely no evidence that God does not exist yet there are very many rational people, like myself, that will testify that they have "felt" God and are sure of his presence.

I tend to believe where there's smoke there is fire. People through out the ages have claimed the existence of God in one form or another. Even discounting my personal experience I would ask myself why. Surely the majority of those who have believed throughout the ages were not in the position of authority - only using religion to control someone. Is everyone who believes an idiot? Are they liars? Are they "sheep"? I don't think so. I think this is clear evidence (conclusive? maybe not, but evidence nonetheless) that there is something there.

Claiming to "KNOW" God does not exist is foolhardy, irrational and just plain arrogant.

Then the question remains, what is God's nature if He does exist? What is He like? What does He want from us? Why did He make us? Those are questions for another day. I think I've come to conclusions about that as well.

[Jack Dudeman]

You seem to 'know' that god exists, Stan.

This, to me, is irrational and arrogant.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I think that the far more irrational people are the ones who believe blindly in something that is entirely based on personal faith. And as I said earlier, and I think that all would agree: Faith and fact are two entirely different things.

On a side note, I strongly disapprove of the 'go-tell-it-on-the-mountain' attitude of most Christian sects.

Atheists/agnostics are not trying to convert anyone to anything... just to get people to listen to reason.

[Stan]

I think you're incapable of even listening, bud. I told you I have had an experience that helped me realize that God exists. I'm not talking about blind faith. You are though. You have blind faith God doesn't exist despite first hand testimony and millions of people that also believe.

How can a person get more arrogant than to tell someone they didn't have an experience that they had. That's laughable, frankly!

Go ahead and believe whatever you want. That's your prerogative. Go ahead and ignore what I say. It's to your own undoing, not mine.

Party on!

[Jack Dudeman]

My undoing? Nice.

But if man can really, actually determine if there is a god or not, then the burden of proof lies on the believers.

Here's what I'm getting:

Is there a god?
Yes.
How do you know this?
Because I know.

And justify your belief in something by saying that millions of people believe it, it must be true, is ignorant to me. And first hand testimony of the existence of god just doesn't hold any water. People have vivid imaginations, and testify to many, many other things.

[Stan]

Here's what I get from your argument...

Seeing man says, "I can see colors with my eyes."

Blind man says, "Colors? What's that? There is no way to sense light. No you can't. You're lying (or crazy, or imaginative, whatever)."

Seeing man says, "No, really I can see colors."

Blind man says, "Prove it. You're a liar."

That's what I get. See the deal is this...I have no burden to prove anything to you or anyone else. It's your choice. I'm not trying to convince you. You have your mind made up.

I'm telling you the truth.

Either way, you don't know me. You can't call me a liar or anything else for that matter without making one huge assumption, that you're right. Since there is no way to prove that you're right, you must be jumping to conclusions about something you know nothing about, namely my experiences. That is ignorant.

And, again, you have trouble comprehending what I wrote...the fact that millions of people have experienced God's presence means, 1. there are millions of liars, 2. there's something to this God business, 3. there are millions of people not as smart as that Jack Dudeman guy, 4. there are a bunch of crazies out there. I didn't say it was conclusive evidence...in fact, I said it wasn't conclusive. However, it is evidence, like it or not.

Finally, you're discounting one thing when trying to convince me there's no God...as I've stated before, I've sensed God and I know he exists. There aren't many guarantees in life Jack, but that's my claim and I guarantee you and I will be in the same place some day when my claim is proven once and for all. Take that to the bank.