Gayness: Nature or Nurture?

[Dee]

Would you not be offended if I said 'I'm almost sure that every Muslim is born a terrorist'?

I do not say that - because I listen to what Muslim people say, and the vast majority of them denounce terrorism.

To say that all Muslims are terrorists by nature is to be ignorant, and not to consider what the experts on Islam - the Muslims themselves - say

To say that gay people are gay by nurture, is to be ignorant, and not to consdier what the experts on homosexuality - the Gay people themselves - say

I never knew that I could be offending someone by saying that gayness comes from nurture and not nature...

It's true that I have no experiences in that department, but that came from examining the examples I have seen.

[AoM]

I am willing to bet bottom dollar (or whatever currency you wish to go by) that the spectrum of sexuality, homo, hetero and everything inbetween, is determined by both nurture and nature. So there really should be a third option to this poll.

I believe that given time and research, we will discover genetic predisposition towards one end of the spectrum or the other. This will likely not be just one 'gay' gene, but rather a combination of several or many.

But as we know the human brain to be malleable, and that the nervous connections in our minds can strengthen or weaken over time given outside stimuli (such as encouragement or discouragement of certain sexual behaviors), I think it likely that nurture, in both public and private environments, will decide just how strongly, if at all, our sexual orientation is displayed and at what point on the sliding scale of sexuality.

So to rinse and repeat West and Farmer's points, sexuality is not necessarily black and white. KeVes, I strongly disagree with your position, even though I too am a heterosexual. Homosexuality is as natural as apples and oranges, my friend. It is a characteristic that exists in nature, and is not exclusive to humanity.

As to the inffered idea that AIDS is a 'gay disease,' Dee, I must say that I was shocked to read that. It certainly does not exist only within the gay culture. AIDS does not = homosexual. (And I'm not referring to botched blood transfusions and the like.)

[cantrlady]

I absolutely agree that homosexuality is by nature. One of my childhood neighborhood friends was gay. I knew from an early age that he was different than me – not a wrong different –just different. I don’t ever remember my parents or any of the rest of my neighborhood friend’s parents telling us to accept his differences but we did naturally and I thank them for I am a better person knowing this man today and loving him. He has three brothers that are heterosexual and by no means was he treated differently in his home but he was gay from an early age and nurturing had nothing to do with it at all. Seeing this person mature through the developmental stages that we all go through – his choice of sexual orientation was already decided for him – it was not his personal choice.

[AoM]

I should make my stance clear: I do not believe one can decide to be or not to be gay. The decision is made for them by genetic predisposition and a myriad unknown environmental factors throughout life. Homosexuality is not a choice.

[Dee]

Again, to clear myself.. I didn't say that AIDS was due to gayness, I said it was transfered to him through the intercourse!

Although I do believe that that's how AIDS started. That's how it was transferred to humans, right?

Please don't be harsh on me I am just trying to learn! I never said I knew everything, I would have never started the thread with a question if I did know the answer!

[formerly known as hf]

I never knew that I could be offending someone by saying that gayness comes from nurture and not nature...

It's true that I have no experiences in that department, but that came from examining the examples I have seen.

No, it's offensive to say you are 'sure' of something, when that sureness comes from your own beliefs and not those of whom you are discussing.

AIDS transfers via sexual intercourse - of any kind.
That it was a homosexual relationship makes no difference - your relative, if he was heterosexual, could still have caught AIDS, as could you. Transfer of AIDS is not down to heter/homosexuality - but down to how careful people are about protection.

[Pie]

Lets look back at history. Why is it that there aren't many(maby 5 at the most) peaople who where GAY bach in the... oh... lets say... 1000'nds? BECOUS GAYNES IS NURTURE!!!! Why are there more now? BECOUS GAYNES IS NURTURE!!! I'm not saying that Hetrosexualnes is natur, becous its also nurture.

You know what? I could be gay. My dad was gay(he turned gay) and I'm sensiteve about feelings. Who knows? Maby inside I'm gay!!! But I'm not, due to NURTURE!!! I don't really WANT to be gay, and thus i WON'T be gay, DUE TO NURTURE. Sure, there are some natural things, such as hormones, and stuff, but it all comes down to one choice.

This is sooo like the religion, evolution, and other threads here. It's pointless. It dosen't mean anything.

Oh, and dee, AIDS came frome the study of can a man and a monkey make a baby, made with people in africa, and it came frome monkeys canibalising each other. It can be transfured by the sharing of bodily fluids.

[AoM]

Pie... just stop.

There WERE LOTS of gay people throughout history. Try the Greek warrior castes before the Roman Empire. Try the Japanese samurai class who had a tradition of man and boy love. There have been cultures throughout history that have not only allowed for homosexuality, but in fact encouraged it.

The spread of Christianity/Islam/Judaism is what has clammed up the history books on the subject. The popular religions had, and mostly still have, a zero tolerance of it and deem it a sin against God. Gays and lesbians in those cultures throughout history would face stonings or being burned for heresy and witchcraft for their practices. Homosexuality has always been present, but the homosexuals haven't been writing the history books.

[Sunni Daez]

http://www.natap.org/2001/sep/genesis091101.htm

interesting topic on the origination of the AIDS virus...

[KVZ]

As long as they not argue with me and they stay with that to their own that is ok.

If I was to turn that around, and say that I wish heterosexual people, like yourself, wouldn't argue with me and would 'stay with their own' - would you not find that offensive?

Nope. That is rather defensive for me anytime. Offensive is if someone still buging you like want to change your mind, even if you stated clear that you have your own opionon. More offensive is if you say that someone opinion is stupid, because you have other.

[formerly known as hf]

As long as they not argue with me and they stay with that to their own that is ok.

If I was to turn that around, and say that I wish heterosexual people, like yourself, wouldn't argue with me and would 'stay with their own' - would you not find that offensive?

Nope. That is rather defensive for me anytime. Offensive is if someone still buging you like want to change your mind, even if you stated clear that you have your own opionon. More offensive is if you say that someone opinion is stupid, because you have other.

The way you phrased the sentence was pretty stupid - you said 'feel' which is different to 'be'. A valid statement (although I would disagree) is that no one can be naturally gay - but a stupid statement is to say no one can feel naturally gay - when many gay people do.

If you wish to be defensive, and shield yourself from the opinions and lives of others - that is your choice. Although I would see that as living in ignorance, and I would find it offensive that you would wish to shut a large number of people out of your experiences based upon sexuality.

How would you feel if I said 'As long as Polish people don't talk to me and stay with each other, that's ok?'

[SekoETC]

One question, how many old gay couples do you know? As far as I know, they keep switching for the young ones. Some fancy the big hairy masculine guys and some fancy the thin weak boys. But what happens to the thin weak boy when he becomes a thin weak man? Who's gonna love him then?

Perhaps the problem lies in the secrecy and the fact that not many places allow gay couples to register their relationship. Therefor there's nothing solid to keep them together.

[KVZ]

The way you phrased the sentence was pretty stupid - you said 'feel' which is different to 'be'. A valid statement (although I would disagree) is that no one can be naturally gay - but a stupid statement is to say no one can feel naturally gay - when many gay people do.

That was quoted statement. But I think that there should be "should" insted than "can", or "be" insted than "feel". But I support idea that it is not natural anyway. And that is a point of discussion, and not about proper forming of sentences.

If you wish to be defensive, and shield yourself from the opinions and lives of others - that is your choice. Although I would see that as living in ignorance, and I would find it offensive that you would wish to shut a large number of people out of your experiences based upon sexuality.

Maybe I am not interested? And I do not like that topic? And who said that I want to shut them? I am just critique and I have strong personal opinion supported with arguments which maybe I do not like to share. Back to discussion. Is there a gene that says that someone are gay? I hope it is not, because then you will have right, and that would be even worse. Even if is, evolution would not support this genotype because gays cannot reproduce, at least until they will start to clone eachother. Where it can lead? To war of sexes? Then straight people would be those who really love peace.

How would you feel if I said 'As long as Polish people don't talk to me and stay with each other, that's ok?'

I would think then that you really had a some troubles with some of us, thats ok for me, that someone wanna be separated from those with which he had problems. As long as there can be angry and so on, it is best solution - to separate. Thats why there are prisons on the world, where bad peoples are separated, and it is true that sometime they better feel in that prison than outside in civil society because there they find people who share their ideas. Thats why some of us go to army, and other goes to church, and become priests and so on.

[KVZ]

One question, how many old gay couples do you know? As far as I know, they keep switching for the young ones. Some fancy the big hairy masculine guys and some fancy the thin weak boys. But what happens to the thin weak boy when he becomes a thin weak man? Who's gonna love him then?

Well, if he is smart enough he can have many normal and nice girls, and he can be a straight... lol. Unles he thinks that he is natural gay...

I think that most of gays are those who not found lucky with relationship with girls in their past (childhood?), and then they started to look for love elsewhere... And then they even started to like this, and now they are so proud to say they are "natural" gays... Humbug. Maybe in some ancient societies like Greeks, there were true natural gays, but now I not think that there now are such societies where gayness can be started from the child as a natural thing. But this is almost the same like with freedom. If they wish that they are natural, they think that they are, even if evil facts tell someting else.

[Talapus]

One question, how many old gay couples do you know? As far as I know, they keep switching for the young ones. Some fancy the big hairy masculine guys and some fancy the thin weak boys. But what happens to the thin weak boy when he becomes a thin weak man? Who's gonna love him then?

Perhaps the problem lies in the secrecy and the fact that not many places allow gay couples to register their relationship. Therefor there's nothing solid to keep them together.

Perhaps. However, I know plenty of homosexual couples that are together for life, just as I know many long time couples that never got married. Even one of my friends when I was growing up was raised by his two mothers. I grew up in an area that was fairly open to homosexual couples, so perhaps it is the secrecy.