Religion

[Phalynx]

I believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet talked about by Jesus in Matthew 24 when he said "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people." Matt 24:11

That's about the size of it for me too....

Not that he is alone....

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Never seen the Deseret alphabet before, my Book of Mormon (and, for that matter, my Bible, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants) is in English.

Well, I think it's not common to find copies of that book in the alphabet either. We'd looked to see what it was worth in a database, and there weren't very many copies of it made like that I don't think. I don't remember for sure how many or anything, but not too terribly many in the grand scheme of things.

The Book of Mormon was originally a set of gold plates which was only seen by a select few for fear that it would be stolen (Joseph Smith was ambushed on his way back to his house with the plates), but Joseph Smith did write down several of the characters in it and gave them to a friend who had them certified by a university professor. Upon learning the requester of the certification was Mormon, he ripped up the certificate of authenticity. Jerk. They were translated by divine power more than special glasses, but the glasses were the instruments of aforementioned power.

Yea, I think that's kind of along the lines of what I was told, thanks for prodding my memory on it.

[Stan]

I believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet talked about by Jesus in Matthew 24 when he said "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people." Matt 24:11

That's about the size of it for me too....

Not that he is alone....

I agree. Jehova's Witness' founder...can't think of his name. And there are, of course, many dangerous guys like Jim Jones, and David Karesh, and the polygamist guy running around the American West.

[west]

I promise you, that I would dare not pass off a meeting with God as a hallucination (unless it obviously was. If you met God and Jesus Christ, don't you think it would stick? Unlike a hallucination which either seems oddly unreal or is obviously unreal but you're too drunk to realize it at the moment.).

But it wasn't YOUR meeting, was it? You're basically taking some guy's word on the matter.

My parents (both very committed Christians) knew a guy who died because he walked out of a third-floor window. He was on LSD and thought Jesus was telling him to come out the window to him.

the point of a hallucination is that you can't TELL that it's real or unreal. Your brain just accepts it as fact.

[Pie]

Ehem....(Directed to nalaris(sp....?) And also, I have a question. How could nativ americans ever know about gold, and actually smelt it? Could they?

And...... How many natives actually have alphabets(sure, they do. But at the time crist was living?)? And how many have the actuall capasity to make golden disks?

And also, If jesus were to have come to native america, he would have broken his word(I'm inclined to say...). Jesus was on the earth to be the mesia of JEWS!! He sais, somewere in the new testimant. I don't know were.... I saw it once... But I have a bad memory and a low amount of patiense.

But yea... that would be breaking his word(I'm inclined to say).

Also, There IS a place in the bible, were it sais that you shouldn't change the word of the lord(or somthing of the sort...And again, I give no proof, for I have no patiense or memory)

[west]

Ehem.... And also, I have a question. How could nativ americans ever know about gold, and actually smelt it? Could they?

And...... How many natives actually have alphabets? And how many have the actuall capasity to make golden disks?

And also, If jesus were to have come to native america, he would have broken his word(I'm inclined to say...). Jesus was on the earth to be the mesia of JEWS!! He sais, somewere in the new testimant. I don't know were.... I saw it once... But I have a bad memory and a low amount of patiense.

But yea... that would be breaking his word(I'm inclined to say).

Also, There IS a place in the bible, were it sais that you shouldn't change the word of the lord(or somthing of the sort...And again, I give no proof, for I have no patiense or memory)

Everyone's a native of somewhere, Pie. But it's true, most North American tribes didn't have written languages, nor much use for gold. As for the "Messiah of Jews" thing, Jesus said that he came for all, not just the Jews.
But the Mormons claim that some Native American tribes WERE "Lost Tribes of Israel" aka Jews.

[Phalynx]

But the Mormons claim that some Native American tribes WERE "Lost Tribes of Israel" aka Jews.

They are also not alone in that.....

[formerly known as hf]

But the Mormons claim that some Native American tribes WERE "Lost Tribes of Israel" aka Jews.

They are also not alone in that.....

Forgive me for being utterly ignorant of US history here, but were those sentiments therfore pro-Native Americans, or another argument for their destruction, this time based upon anti-Semitism?

[west]

I'm not sure, actually. I think it was to legitimize the hypothesis of Jesus coming to North America. I don't believe the Church of Mormon is anti-Semitic, but then in the old days they didn't particularly mind killin' Indians, either.

[Joshuamonkey]

What's with the double post that is almost the same as the first? (this was page 11)

[west]

Without references to what you're talking about I can't readily answer that question.

[Joshuamonkey]

Ehem....(Directed to nalaris(sp....?) And also, I have a question. How could nativ americans ever know about gold, and actually smelt it? Could they?

And...... How many natives actually have alphabets(sure, they do. But at the time crist was living?)? And how many have the actuall capasity to make golden disks?

Apparently they could...with the help of the Lord. He does miracles you know...

And also, If jesus were to have come to native america, he would have broken his word(I'm inclined to say...). Jesus was on the earth to be the mesia of JEWS!! He sais, somewere in the new testimant. I don't know were.... I saw it once... But I have a bad memory and a low amount of patiense.

But yea... that would be breaking his word(I'm inclined to say).

He also told the native american prophets that he would visit. He also said he would be born 300 years after Lehi left Jerusalem. (though if you've never read The Book of Mormon, you probably don't know who Lehi is)

But it wasn't YOUR meeting, was it? You're basically taking some guy's word on the matter.

Pray, feel the spirit. All that good stuff.

[west]

Ehem....(Directed to nalaris(sp....?) And also, I have a question. How could nativ americans ever know about gold, and actually smelt it? Could they?

And...... How many natives actually have alphabets(sure, they do. But at the time crist was living?)? And how many have the actuall capasity to make golden disks?

Apparently they could...with the help of the Lord. He does miracles you know...

"Miracles" is a nice catch-all, isn't it? Don't know how it happened? No proof it happened? Just doesn't seem possible? It was a miracle.

He also told the native american prophets that he would visit. He also said he would be born 300 years after Lehi left Jerusalem. (though if you've never read The Book of Mormon, you probably don't know who Lehi is)

Not to press a point, but you're doing the same thing most Christians do when pressed.

"How do I know this is true? Well, this book says it's true. How do I know the book is telling the truth? Well, right here in this book it says the book always tells the truth. Where'd I get the book? Well, you know, it's been handed down over thousands of years."

Except you're saying "How do I know Jesus fulfilled his promise and came to the Native Americans? Book of Mormon told me. How do I know he promised to come? Book of Mormon. Where'd I get the book? Oh, an angel came to this guy and gave it to him. What was it on? Oh, golden plates written in a strange alphabet. How'd he understand it? Well, God made it so he'd understand it. Where'd the plates go? Oh, you know. They disappeared. Can't have just anyone stealin' 'em, you know. How do I know all this? Guy who saw the plates told some people."

etc. etc.

I'm not attacking Christianity or Mormonism or theism or any other -ism here. I'm just saying beware of circular logic and remember that the people who ask you to take their word for things don't necessarily have the best intentions. Belief is a great thing but belief doesn't make things true by itself anymore than wishes catch fishes.

Whew. Don't know why I felt compelled to write all that but there you have it.

[Pie]

ALRIGHT!!! I'V GOT ME A DEBAIT!!
West,
In the bible, there is a story about this gentile(non-jew) that came up to jesus to ask for help. he told here that he came fore the people of god(the jews) although I can't remember were this is... I know its SOMEWERE in the gosples....

Joshua monkey....

You have a point. If god wanted to, he could make it so that jesus DID go to N.A. But there are many reasons for his not going to N.A. First, that jesus would be to buisy building heaven for one..... And why would jesus not tell anyone in the bible that he was going to go to North america?

And as I have used for the "he reasted for a day" think in geneses, Would god really want us to be devide against each other?

Also, the chance that, after the isrealites became isrealites after moses got them frome egypt, (1450 b.c. aprox) the chance that a group of them went acrost the atlantic ocion, or even all the way to rutia and to alaska.... is a very minimal factor. Becous I'm fairly shure that they all went to isrial. Also, 75 A.D., when rome attacked and scatterd the isrealites..... nothing changed. absolutly no chance of them going over there.

OH!!! heres a thought. Jesus was a VERY influential person. He created the most wide spread religion, and the most controvertial religion EVER!!!(I'm fairly shure... ) So why where there no other traces of jesus going there? a few discs.... and the indians never talked about jesus at all when the pioneres came? Now THAT would be a miracle. Becous APARANTLY they know how to make gold, and they can write, so why not make a bible?(becous it never happened. i mean, maby they cant make anymore gold, but they could carve it into trees at least.

So, this Lehi...... When exactly did he leave? and where in any historical texts is he present?

[Pie]

WEST!!! GOSH!!! SHUT UP SO I CAN MAKE A POST AND NOT HAVE TO EDIT IT WILE DEFENDING MYSELF!!

We don't nesesaraly HAVE to go around in circles. We have, a very large emount of evidence supporting us. Again, If you want to hear it frome a perfetional, listen to the book on tape, or read the book(or somthing) of this tape called "the case for crist"

But here is the circle of proof.

Were do you get this stuff? frome the bible. Were do you get the bible? depends. Depends on what? depends on if its the old or new testimant.

Ok.... lets do old testiment. The old testiment is a lot of peices of paper pased doun generation to generation until moses, and other people put them together to form the old testiment. Were did these peices of paper come frome? Depends. The ones frome geneses-Dutoronamy could have come frome adam, eve, and other people over the years, and things, living an extended time becous of environment changes until writing was made. The other ones, I personally don't know about.

Ok, how about the new testimant? how was that made? The 4 gosples were made aproximatly 60 years after jesuses death(aprox) using the first hand visuals of mathew, mark, luke, and jhon. others, such as corinthians were pauls letter of incoragenment to corinth, and revelation was pouls vition of the futier when he was in an island, waiting to be transported to roam to give his mesage to nero(i think thats his name) but he died. And others of the new testimant were also mesiges of sertain desiples to and frome places, and the gospels alone have over 5000 different corosponding notes and stuff in greece.

ok, how do i know that these are tru? Well, we all know that jesus is a real caracter he apeard in this one guys book,(the name excapes me, his name is in "a case for crist) of his crusifiction, wich was being tested... or somthing of the sourt. Also, If you want me to name the 109 proficies that jesus compleatly and totally complyed to.... nice try. I'm not that smart. But I can say, that even for someone to comply to 8 of these proficies, the chances would be enough, in number, to cover texas with a 5 foot deep covering of quarters. Now, the chances of jesus actually NOT being who he actually is.... that right THERE, now THATS imposible. Now, if you want more proof, again, i mus refer you to "a case for crist"

There, is my "circle of truth"