Something to think about....

[ratm]

I agree with you crosshair, although this world is far from logical
Let me just put a little disclaimer here, I mean no disrespect to anybody or their associated religion, I'm just stating my beliefs. I have a hard time believing, truly believing, that a book written thousands of years ago is accurate in what it describes. Even if there is a God, how do we know that what he/she/it said is what the human dicator wrote down, and how do we know it was not edited by people in power to serve their needs? Now, if a miracle were to happen today, one which I could find no other explanation for, I might believe in a God. To some extent I already do. I guess, though, that needing proof before faith isn't really faith at all. D'oh, I just paradox'd myself

[Xeemaar]

I would elaborate Islam's point of view regarding this life, and the death.

Suppose you're sitting in this white-painted room, on this confortable chair. You feel cold, due to the weather. You can listen to the sounds when you press the keys of the keyboard of you computer, and can feel the pressure on your finger-tips when you press them.

Now, how can you say that this world is real? You can see it? That's just a visual signal sent by your eyes to the brain. You can hear it? That's just an auditory signal from the ears.. you can feel the pressure and temperature? those are the signals from the respective sensors in your skin. Is that what all life is? just a bunch of electronic signals sent to your brain?

Suppose I create a special dress, that covers all your body totally, including every bit of skin, and it has thousands of special tiny devices all over it, each one of which can create pressure and change its temperature. A small screen is placed in front of each eye, and a speaker in each ear.

Now, I make you wear that, and you're lying flat on a bed. On the screen, you see a scene from a computer-generated world. If you want to look to the left, you'd turn you head to the left, which means your brain would send signals to the your neck muscles. The special dress detects those signals on the neck muscles, and so, the scene that you were watching in the screens is updated, and now you see the left view. When your brain sends your legs the appropriate signals to walk, you move ahead in the virtual world, and the scene in the screens is updated accordingly. When you collide with something hard or hot in that virtual world, you get the appropriate sensation on the right part of your body. So, can I say, now, that you're actually living in that world??

That is what islam says. According to it, this world is nothing, just a simple 3d world that God created. Every soul has been given a virtual character, which is our body. You soul is doing nothing but just lying on a bed in the heavens. That is why, any possessions in this world really don't have any value. It's just a test, your quest is to move out of the natural urge to cater the virtual model you were granted, and learn the secret that the you're really just a soul.

Death, is when your game is over. Your special dress and cameras and microphones would be removed by God, and you would return to the "real" world. Heaven, is just another virtual world, but it is a "plus" version.. it doesn't have the "Limits", which we call the "Laws of Nature". You can defy gravity there, you can change your size.. in short, you can Create the stimulations you desire, at will, which isn't easilly possible in This life.

Hope I made sense.

[Dee]

Absolutely! You made sense to me!

I like your point of view!

[Schme]

What the big monolithic religions has to say about animals and the afterlife and so on. This was originally written out by Islamic scholars, but is very much accepted by the church aswell as judaism.

I find the story is the best way to explain it. It goes something like this.

After the Lord God created all of the world and the creatures of the world, he decided that he would offer them all a choice. So God went to each of his creations in turn. “Would you like me to grant you free will?” he asked the mice. “Oh no.” said the mice. “We do not want free will.”

“Would you like me to grant you free will?” he asked the owls. “Oh no.” said the owls. “We do not want free will.”

“Would you like me to grant you free will?” he asked the rocks. “Oh no.” said the rocks. “We do not want free will.”

“Would you like me to grant you free will?” he asked the trees. “Oh no.” said the trees. “We do not want free will.”

And so on. He asked every creature and creation, one by one, and all of them turned it down. And then, he came to man. And man, feeling himself up too the responsibility, and willing to be held responsible for it’s own actions, accepted the gift of free will.

And so, since that day, men are judged by what they do, as what they do is their choice. Animals and things are not, as whatever they do is simply there nature, given to them by god.

Man and Djhinn are the only creatures with free will in this world.


That’s the jist of it.

Personally, I believe it too be true (essentially.)

[Dee]

Okay, Schme, guess what! I agree with you for the first time of my life!!

[Xeemaar]

There is no basis for that story in the Quran... so I can't believe that God actually offered free-will to animals. I believe that God is not bound by the humanly limits of asking something in order to know. He just Knows. He has actually made this world according to a plan.

(But yeah, I do agree, that God, according to Islam, DOES have some limits, nowhere in the Quran is it said that God can do everything)

But.. yeah.. if you brought that story just to make it very light and easy to understand that God has granted humans free-will only, and not animals, then I'm with you.

n thnx Dee

[Dee]

(But yeah, I do agree, that God, according to Islam, DOES have some limits, nowhere in the Quran is it said that God can do everything)

I totally DISAGREE!!!! Of course God can do anything and everything!! Are you underestimating Him?? And it is written in the Qur'an "Kon fa yakoon"

I can't literally translate this but it means that if God wanted something to be another thing, he just says be this, then it becomes this!!

I hope you got me.

[Schme]

Okay, Schme, guess what! I agree with you for the first time of my life!!

Haha! It is twice you have said that now.

And yet I have never been told in what instances you disagree with me! : )

There is no basis for that story in the Quran.......

I don't actually remember it being in the Holy Qu'ran. As far as I know, it's just a story.

But yes, all it really is is saying that animals act the way they do because they are animals, men act the way they do by choice. I really don't think it was meant to be literal.



However, as for God (the judaic god we are talking about, that is.) not being all powerful and without limit, I entirely disagree. According to all the teachings from judaism up too islam, it is very clear that there is not limit to Gods power. God is the creator of everything, including limits, and therefore, is also smasher of limits.

God is bound by nothing.


And on the subject of God and who created him and all that, well, no one and nothing created God. It is God who is the creator. (I am of course, reffering to, again, the God taught of in the Torah and so on.)

God is creator of all, and he was always there. No proof, no scientific anylisis. It cannot be proven. You either buy it or you don't. It's all about faith, quite simply.

It's just like Star Wars. One can say "You can't travel at the speed of light, you can't survive on another planet because of the very exact tweakings of every substance in the planet on which you'd be born, these aliens make no sense." and so on. Or you can just watch the movie. You buy it or you don't. Sure, all the things in the movie are unrealistic, but most people really don't care.

This goes for all religions, really.

You believe or you don't.

That's where it ends. Black and White.

[Dee]

Okay, Schme, guess what! I agree with you for the first time of my life!!

Haha! It is twice you have said that now.

And yet I have never been told in what instances you disagree with me! : )

Everything but relegion, really.

Anyway, I still agree with you, Schme. You're saying the things I am not able to say due to my weak English language.

[Nick]

What the big monolithic religions has to say about animals and the afterlife and so on. This was originally written out by Islamic scholars, but is very much accepted by the church aswell as judaism.

All Dogs Go to Heaven

[Xeemaar]

Dee.. listen.
I didn't mean any disrespect to the highest power. I only said what's true.

Everybody so easilly says "God can do everything! he can make everything!".. where do we get that from? Is that written anywhere in the Quran? It's not! The closest thing, to that, is "Innallaha Kulli Shai in Qadeer" (God has power over all things). Never does it say "god can create everything".

Let me give you an example...

Can God create anything he desires?
You'd say Yes.

Can God destroy anything?
You'd say yes to this, too.

Now... tell me... Can God create something he can't destroy?
.
.
.
What's your answer? See? If there was something like that in the Quran, it would've been proven wrong so easilly long time ago by the athiests. That's why it's hard to find flaws in the Quran.

I'd give you another example...
The Quran says, "Everything is God's Domain, nothing is out of His Domain"

Now, you say, God can do Everything. If so, can God throw me out of his Domain?
Where would he throw me? there's nothing outside his domain!

So.. you see... we shouldn't assume simple truths that aren't in the Quran.. even if they seem very simple and innocent.

God has the Maximum Possible Power, though.

Hope I made sense...

[Dee]

Well, maybe it's because there's nothing that can't be destroyed by God?

I don't know... I'll have to ask other people who are more knowledgeable about this one.

[Antichrist_Online]

In my mixture of beliefs which I've collated down to a few simple things:
In day to day life I comfort myself by thinking I'm going to a Vahalla like place when I die. But when it comes down to it, I'm going to die, turn back into the molecules/particles/elements I was made from and become something else, another part of everything there is and will always be, the Tao, God, Heaven, whatever, that thing which is just that little bit more than everything, when we're dead we just become another part of the same thing.

[Stan]

Christianity does not require one to check logic at the door. In fact, it invites it.

Look at the Apostles as an example. They claim that Christ is God. They witnessed miracles including the man walking on a sea and Him raising someone from the dea. They also saw him feed thousands from a few fish and loaves of bread.

Of those same men, 1 committed suicide after he betrayed Jesus. Of the others a full 10 of them died as martyrs. I don't know how you would behave, but I don't know anyone who would give their life to perpetuate what they know is a lie.

How do I, Ed Hall a.k.a. Stan know that God is real and that Jesus is God? Because I see the effects in my own life. Can I see Him? No. Can I feel Him? Yes.

Someone once said, (paraphrase) "I can't see the wind, but I feel it's effects. So I know that there is wind."

I can't see God, but I can feel His effects, so I know He is there.

God welcomes your testing Him. If you have questions of God, I have a challenge for you.

Tonight, when you are laying in bed do this.

Say, "God, I'm not sure I believe in you. But if you are there make your presence known to me in a way that I can feel. If you are there, remove the doubt that I have."

If there's no God you've lost nothing, but if there is a God you're going to get your socks blown off. Just be patient and know that He is God and He answers prayer.

[Schme]

Oh, Xeemar, not the god damn “If god is all powerfull, could he microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?” shit.

Fuck that, man.

God can do ANYTHING, man, at least, that’s whats said in the scriptures. The Holy Qu’ran is not the only holy writings pertaining too the god we are talking about, my friend.

So you’ve figured out some circle logic. Anyone can put some words together to try and take away from the lord’s great name.

Everything is in his domain, so he can’t send someone outside his domain. Do you think he could not create a place outside his domain? The creator of all? It would be trivial. And after he was finished cramming you in a void, he could take control of it again and make it his domain. Not much of a stretch, assuming he is the absolute power.

It goes the same for the destruction.

The being with the power to create anything can create anything, and if that is something that he cannot destroy is what he wants to create, he can.

And yet, he is also the being with power over everything, and therefore, he could very well change it so that he could destroy it.

That logic works both ways. All I’m saying is your arguments backwards. Two way street, brother.

The answer to both questions is yes and no.




Then, this is all assuming that he does in fact exist, in the sense in which we are talking about (that being the Judaic sense), and is, as has been written down through the ages, all powerful. We must work under that assumption for the sake of this argument.