Religion

[Antichrist_Online]

Actually, it is possible to get pregnant without having sex. Complete non-disjunction of chromosomes can occur and will produce a child, however it will always be female and infertile and is exceptionally rare in humans. Sperm also can live for up to three months, and very rare cases have implanted into the egg by non-sexual introduction to the body (even through other sources) though this is much rarer than non-disjunction.

[formerly known as hf]

HF for someone who told me off because I'm not a woman you sure jump to a lot of conclusions and ideas about women....

I agree, I personally have bugger all experience on pregnancy, rape and saying no to men (although I do have some experience on just how scary men can be when they want sex). The majority of what I have put here is repetition from women I know and feminist scholars.

If there is duress than as far as I am concerned thats rape, you don't need to hold a knife at someone's throat to be a rapist... Ever shagged someone when they are drunk, unless their expressed their intentions when they were sober that in my opinion thats rape! Ever used the fact that you are older and more expereinced to persuade a girl, thats rape (not informed consent).

I would agree. But then, you have to relaise just how common those things you listed are. Not just common, but regular, everyday, continual occurences. Unwanted pregnancies are rarely the result of poor planning, but usually the result of a woman engaging in sexual intercourse that she normally wouldn't have, either because she's been plied with drink, or feels she can not say no (and there are numerous reasons for that). If you say rape is a valid reason for abortion, then say that sex under duress can be classified as rape, then you pave the way for the large proportions of abortions to be acceptable.

And, Stan, I'm sorry, but discussing abstinence as a workable means of avoiding unwanted pregnancy, really, really, really annoys me. Really. Kinda bull-seeing red style.
I will concede that for the well educated, intelligent, empowered women of the western world, abstinence is a possibility.
But, those women are a minority.

In the rest of the world, female empowerment is well off the horizon. Saying no to men, taking control of your own sexuality, your own pregnancy, is an alien concept. Something that is not just not done. Ok, so, fine, teach the men abstinence. Hah. Yeah. That's gonna work, because a man is really going to care if some woman gets pregnant?

Similar situations affect many women in the west. Many families still accept the dominant position of men. Many women are not empowered. They do not feel they have the ability, or right to say no to men. This happens regularly in the US and the rest of the west. Just because you may be surrounded by empowered women, and see them on tv all the time, doesn't mean that's the reality for all, even most, women. The same goes. It's no use trying to teach abstinence if the person who most needs to follow it is not in a position to actually abstain. Yes the man should take responsibility, but that's rarely the case. As before, pregnancy affects women, not men, so although the blame should be put at the man's door, it doesn't really solve the problem.

Asking, and expecting, teenagers to be able to abstain is just so misguided. I was a teenager, once, back in those not so far off days, and bugger me (as I was on occasion) if I'd ever consider abstinence. Poppy cock. If a teenager wants to have sex, why stop them? Self control is a good thing to teach, yes, so teach abstinence in that respect, also make sure that teenage girls know that 'no' is an acceptable phrase. Then, if they still want to (and they probably will) have sex, amke sure they have the access and knowledge so that it's safe.

Then again, the same thing does apply, teenage girls regularly get pressured into having unwanted sex because boyfriends force them into it, in a variety of ways. Do you ever, really, think that a teenge girl wants to get pregnant?

Abstinence works only if the woman involved is empowered enough to know that she can say no. Or if the man is enlightened enough to understand.

Enlightened men and empowered women are very rare.

[Stan]

And, Stan, I'm sorry, but discussing abstinence as a workable means of avoiding unwanted pregnancy, really, really, really annoys me. Really. Kinda bull-seeing red style.

Look bud, I'm not saying this is the only option. I'm saying don't ignore the fact that it is possible to avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Geeze, it's a fact of biology (though AC Online had an interested point on that). To offer all the other alternatives and excuses plainly ignores the fact that it can be done. Just because it's hard for a person makes no difference in the matter. Whatever happened to following the "road less travelled"? It used to be a badge of honor to succeed in achieving something hard.

Also, no need to get mad, dude. It's just an Internet discussion forum and it's just my opinion.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the US there have been 43 million abortions since the mid 70's. Some of these pregnancies (I don't know the number) could have been avoided by a little self control. That's an obvious fact. You have to concede it to be credible.

As for empowering women across the globe...I'm for it whether it reduces abortion or not. It's just the right thing to do. By the way, I know a few women in Kenya that would slap your ass for assuming they aren't in control enough with their own bodies to avoid unwanted sexual advances. You shouldn't always assume people outside the Western world are always walked all over...that's contrary to my personal experience. Perhaps they are walked on as a nation on the world stage, but in much of the world women can get what they want just like in the Western world. To that I say, "You go girl!"

[formerly known as hf]

Just because it's hard for a person makes no difference in the matter. Whatever happened to following the "road less travelled"? It used to be a badge of honor to succeed in achieving something hard.

It's not that saying no is just hard for some women, it's that it's not even a considered possibility. And as for it being considered an achievement, women might instead find that they are firther abused by a man if they say no, and may get little support from their family.

By the way, I know a few women in Kenya that would slap your ass for assuming they aren't in control enough with their own bodies to avoid unwanted sexual advances. You shouldn't always assume people outside the Western world are always walked all over...that's contrary to my personal experience. Perhaps they are walked on as a nation on the world stage

Yes, you're right. It was a somewhat sweeping generalisation when I spoke about the lack of female empowerment in the global south, and I will happily conceed that that isn't the case in all circumstances.

But I would think that the women you know, and some of the women I know from Columbia and India, who would probably slap me if I suggested they weren't able to say no, are by far the exceptions, and they would probably agree.

but in much of the world women can get what they want just like in the Western world.

I'm sorry, but my own experience and the experiences I've heard from others says the reality is much much different. It's even wrong to suggest that women can get what they want in the western world.

Most of the women you and I know are probably fairly well educated and empowered, but there are many women who aren't, especially during their teenage years. Male domination is really not something that is in the past, it is the reality for many women. It's something that manifests itself in lower wages for women doing the same high-powered jobs as men in the same position, and it is manifested in the wife who still accepts that it is her husbands right to beat her.

Male domination is even more heavily engrained in other societies, especially those in the global south. There are, of course, some exceptions. Numerous socieities and cultures in Latin America have actually long had women as valued, respected and leading members, for generations. But, by and large, male domination is how things are for many women. The whole concept of female education is still alien to many people, let alone female empowerment.

Wherever you are in the world, male domination is still a heavily entrenched reality of experience.

[Nalaris]

Personally, I abhor the topic of abortion because it's impossible to argue one way or another conclusively. Alright, I'll assume you're right about female empowerment (or the lack thereof) in the "global south" (does that mean not in Manchuria?). If so, then the best we can do is spread enlightenment (and with it, empowerment) to those nations, correct? And before we can do that, we need to spread it to the poorest slums in the West. So, as long as we're talking about something more physically effectible than the afterlife, what can we do?

We both accept that abortion is evil, we're just debating whether or not it's necesarry, correct? So in a perfect world there would be no abortion?

On an unrelated and hopefully inoffensive notes, I notice that both of my major debate opponents (Nick and HF) come from other nations. Coincidence, probably.

[deadboy]

No we do not all agree abortion is evil. I think it is neither good nor bad. It is simply a choice

[Hellzon]

On an unrelated and hopefully inoffensive notes, I notice that both of my major debate opponents (Nick and HF) come from other nations. Coincidence, probably.

Probably not. Assuming you're not Swedish (since I am and have provided some snark here too), it's probably a matter of the Brits, Canadians and Swedes not being brought up with as much of conservative Christian values.
To us secular socialists here in polar bear-land, those values seem quite amazing. (Or odd, if you're in that mood.)

Of course, if you're not from the US, I'm talking out of my arse.

/Hellzon - still unarmed at the clapping convention

[Missy]

Alright, I have a series of questions I'd like to ask then.


1.) Do you think that because a woman has an abortion, she doesn't think about the fact she's taking away the possibility of life?

2.) When you say you try and if you fail you try again, that other people don't? And if they don't get their goal, does that mean they didn't try as hard as you or that they're not trying hard enough? How do you know?

3.) When you try and you fail there's usually a consequence for that, correct?

4.) When you try and fail and if there is a consequence, whose hands is that consequence in? Yours? Gods? Someone elses?


5.) When you try and you fail, would you rather that someone was supportive of you and tried to help you meet your goal, or would you rather that someone told you what a failure you were?


6.) Do you think that if a woman has two abortions, she doesn't think about the fact she's taking away the possibility of life?


7.) When children are killed in Iraq, do you feel bad? Responsible? Think about the loss of life?


8.) Since you support the war and the fact bombs are being thrown into a foreign country which results in the death of many children/babies/adults are you not therefor responsible for the loss of life?


9.) Do you think that killing an already born person is different than killing an unborn?


10.) Do you believe in god?


11.) If you believe in god, do you believe he's responsible for everything that happens?


12.) Do you believe that life is in gods hands?


13.) When presented with this scinerio, what do you do: You're pregnant with twins and a doctor tells you that they have to be delivered immediately or else they'll die, but there's a chance you might die durring the operation. Do you A.) Have the operation. B.) Explain that it's gods will, if the children or myself were meant to live, we will. I will not have the operation. C.) I will have the operation, and whichever one of us were meant to live is gods will.


14.) Would you agree with a lawsuit against a woman who refused to have the above operation, believing it was in gods hands whether that child was meant to live? After all, isn't having the operation, deciding, rather than letting what will happen, happen?


15.) But isn't life in gods hands?


16.) Doesn't god make us have stillborns and misscarriages?



17.) What right is it of a doctor to say whether that baby lives or dies? Of any court? Of any parent?



18.) If that's the case, then what of abortion and if there weren't medical politics, would the parent even be presented with the choice to take away life/give life? Wouldn't she just be a pregnant woman having a complicated delivery/pregnancy and whatever happened, happened?



19.) Aren't all these answers saying that medical technology and evolution are bad?



20.) If a not yet born baby is considered life, then isn't a seed that has not yet sprouted, a flower?



21.) If "God" is the ultimate judge, what place is it of yours to tell another person they can/can't do something?


22.) If instinct is controllable, then why is it that in this day and age, we're looking for ways to hide and cover up what's natural?


23.) Wasn't it common long long ago, to be fourteen-sixteen and birthing your first child? Then, you didn't go to school and worry about making money because you lived on the farms and life was in fact making life? Didn't someone else come along and "say" that it wasn't natural?


24.) Haven't we deemed sex at that age wrong? But isn't it proving to be instinct to have sex? Why else do teenagers not grasp that they can't do it, unprotectedly? Is it because the consequences society has created for someone that has children of that age, shouldn't be there? But then, isn't it wrong to waste the seed?


25.) Is it because you can't in fact control instinct?


26.) Why don't you ever see an Amish person having an abortion?

[Stan]

Wherever you are in the world, male domination is still a heavily entrenched reality of experience.

Ok. I think that's probably the case, especially in slums and the like. My opinion is that forced sex in any context is rape, be it in the western world or otherwise, rich or poor.

I also doubt, though, that in slums in New Delhi, Nairobi, etc there are many abortions that are performed. Food is the order of the day and more children help collect more food.

Somebody get Hellzon some arms.


Wow! Lot's of questions. That must have come at the same time I posted. Who are they for? Me? I'll do my best to anwer.

[Phalynx]

HF your arguemtns are pretty suprious, the women empowered enough to say No are also the ones, on the whole, with the easiest access to abortion....

The opressed masses of women out there you refer to probably can't get access to abortion either because of availability or cost... the idea the best way of chainging the world is to give them abortion deals with a symptom, not a cause... the men need dealing with in that respect...


Here in the empowered west too many people use abortion for birth control. From a health professionals background this is very bad because it increases the likelihood of sexually transmitted diseases and to boot there is evidence that it cause increases rates of infertility later in life. So you have a procedure to get rid of a baby then 15 years later you need another one to have a baby...

That's not a moral argument, just a pragmatic one!

[Stan]

If those questions were directed at me, here are my answers:

1.) Do you think that because a woman has an abortion, she doesn't think about the fact she's taking away the possibility of life? I know some of them do. I had a friend in high school that I drove to an abortion clinic (not my girlfriend). She was a mess after it. I lost touch with this person until about 6 months ago when I saw her at her workplace. We chatted briefly and she asked me how my life had been. I have no complaints. When I asked her the same question she began to cry and said that her life has been a wreck. She has 2 other children that she loves but said that when she looks at her oldest (especially on her birthday) she wonders why she did what she did. She said something profound to me. She said that she can’t imagine why she made such a permanent choice out of fear of her parents anger that would have been so short lived. She said she though abortion was still an option that should be legal, but that she would dissuade everyone from doing it.

2.) When you say you try and if you fail you try again, that other people don't? And if they don't get their goal, does that mean they didn't try as hard as you or that they're not trying hard enough? How do you know? I’m not making any judgement about anyone. I’m simply stating that because something is hard doesn’t make it impossible. And sometimes the “impossible” can also be achieved. I encourage anyone to be more than they ever thought they could be. I would encourage all people to stretch themselves beyond their fears or their preconceived notions people have about them. If someone tells me I’m naïve or that I cannot achieve something, if I believe I can no one can get me down. For the person out there that doesn’t think they can abstain from sex I would say, “if you want to do it, you can do it”. For those that don’t want to. That’s their choice.

3.) When you try and you fail there's usually a consequence for that, correct? Sometimes. But don’t let that stop you. If you are doing the right thing and you fail, be willing to pay the consequence.

4.) When you try and fail and if there is a consequence, whose hands is that consequence in? Yours? Gods? Someone elses? Could be any of the above. Sometimes my failure is based on my weakness or my inability. Sometimes I attempt things that aren’t God’s will. Sometimes others will do their best to destroy my efforts. It is possible for any of those to occur. If I fail and I think it was because God’s will was different, I rejoice. For the other two, I try again.


5.) When you try and you fail, would you rather that someone was supportive of you and tried to help you meet your goal, or would you rather that someone told you what a failure you were? Of course, I would rather someone support me. However, I don’t think people that guide me down the wrong path to make my failure easy to swallow does me any favor. I prefer that I get good advice that comes from love. Other type of advice that doesn’t take into account the full picture is called enabling. I don’t want an enabler in my life. If I’m making poor choices I want somebody to tell me about it. I might disagree but I can consider it.


6.) Do you think that if a woman has two abortions, she doesn't think about the fact she's taking away the possibility of life? No. I think she might. She might even believe that it is wrong but that she has no choice. I believe there are better choices. I already gave my personal experience on this topic.


7.) When children are killed in Iraq, do you feel bad? Responsible? Think about the loss of life? It disgusts me and saddens me. In Cincinnati, where I live, there was a girl from Iraq that came to one of the local hospitals to get treated for burns. I so much wanted to hug that little girl and show her that she is loved by people that don’t even know her. I spend roughly 2 hours per day in prayer. Of that time, there are times when fully half of my prayer is focused on children caught in the grips of war and situations where they have no control.


8.) Since you support the war and the fact bombs are being thrown into a foreign country which results in the death of many children/babies/adults are you not therefore responsible for the loss of life? Of course not. I think war is a terrible option. However, I believe that the regime in Iraq killed many people over the years and needed to be removed. The people that are fighting Americans right now are responsible for the death that continues to occur. Most of these people are trying to cause havoc. It is because of them that this war continues.


9.) Do you think that killing an already born person is different than killing an unborn? Same thing.


10.) Do you believe in god? Yes. Not only do I believe in Him. I can sense Him through the Holy Spirit that lives in me.


11.) If you believe in god, do you believe he's responsible for everything that happens? No. God gives rules to live by. He gave men and women free. That free will means people will make the wrong choices.

12.) Do you believe that life is in gods hands? Yes. But he gave free will to people. Some will love Him and do what He says. Some will not. People paying for the mistakes of others is a fact of life. It will continue to occur until the end of days.


13.) When presented with this scinerio, what do you do: You're pregnant with twins and a doctor tells you that they have to be delivered immediately or else they'll die, but there's a chance you might die durring the operation. Do you A.) Have the operation. B.) Explain that it's gods will, if the children or myself were meant to live, we will. I will not have the operation. C.) I will have the operation, and whichever one of us were meant to live is gods will. I can’t answer that question without prayerful consideration of an actual event. I don’t have canned decision for events that might occur in my life. I consider each decision carefully before acting. When my wife was pregnant with our first daughter we found out because my wife went into surgery for a breast biopsy. I felt an urging from God to ask the doctor to do a pregnancy check. Low and behold she was pregnant. At that we decided to stop the operation because of the anesthesia. Our decision was that we would not jeopardize a baby for cancer treatment. Thank God she didn’t have cancer and so everyone is healthy.



14.) Would you agree with a lawsuit against a woman who refused to have the above operation, believing it was in gods hands whether that child was meant to live? After all, isn't having the operation, deciding, rather than letting what will happen, happen? No. I would disagree with a lawsuit.


15.) But isn't life in gods hands? Yes. But God gave free will. He knows what will happen but He’s not a puppeteer.

16.) Doesn't god make us have stillborns and misscarriages? Yes. I don’t know why. But, yes.



17.) What right is it of a doctor to say whether that baby lives or dies? Of any court? Of any parent? None.



18.) If that's the case, then what of abortion and if there weren't medical politics, would the parent even be presented with the choice to take away life/give life? Wouldn't she just be a pregnant woman having a complicated delivery/pregnancy and whatever happened, happened? I don’t understand the question.


19.) Aren't all these answers saying that medical technology and evolution are bad? I don’t think medicine is bad. I believe God created man and woman



20.) If a not yet born baby is considered life, then isn't a seed that has not yet sprouted, a flower? No. Human embryos don’t go dormant like a seed after “germination”. The analogy would be that a bean sprout is a plant. Even though it isn’t a fully formed bean vine it is a plant and it is uniquely a bean plant.



21.) If "God" is the ultimate judge, what place is it of yours to tell another person they can/can't do something? None. I don’t tell people what they can or cannot do. But, I do share what God says they can or cannot do in agreement with my beliefs. God decides right from wrong. But, if someone doesn’t tell a person the truth how will they ever hear the truth?


22.) If instinct is controllable, then why is it that in this day and age, we're looking for ways to hide and cover up what's natural? Because we are still human.


23.) Wasn't it common long long ago, to be fourteen-sixteen and birthing your first child? Then, you didn't go to school and worry about making money because you lived on the farms and life was in fact making life? Didn't someone else come along and "say" that it wasn't natural? Yes. I agree. However, people were getting married then. I don’t think the context is the same. If you’re talking about sex between married people at that age, then yes, I agree.

24.) Haven't we deemed sex at that age wrong? But isn't it proving to be instinct to have sex? Why else do teenagers not grasp that they can't do it, unprotectedly? Is it because the consequences society has created for someone that has children of that age, shouldn't be there? But then, isn't it wrong to waste the seed? Yes. It is instinct. But human beings are capable of resisting instinct. Is isn’t wrong to wait because of wasted seed.


25.) Is it because you can't in fact control instinct? No. Instinct can’t be controlled but it can be resisted.


26.) Why don't you ever see an Amish person having an abortion? I have no idea, but I believe their lifestyle which includes a strong belief in the sanctity of marriage and abstaining from sex until marriage plays into this.

[sanchez]

There was a study a couple of years ago that found that the leading cause of death among pregnant women in the US, by far, is homicide.

Choices aren't so simple.

[Stan]

That doesn't make some choices right that otherwise are wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you're implying that some women should have abortions so that their spouse or boyfriend doesn't kill them then I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Just a note:
When looking at statistics of abortion, remember that there are also probably many cases of illegal abortion that people can't study.

Just because a person doesn't have the means to get a legal (and probably more sanitary) abortion, doesn't mean they won't find the means to get an illegal abortion with a hanger or some other way just as bad and dangerous.

Stan:
Who defines right or wrong? Society tries to, but I think in the end it boils down to what a person believes is right or wrong within a given situation. Just because you think a choice would be wrong no matter the circumstances, doesn't mean that others think the same. It is not so black and white.

[Stan]

I don't claim something is right or wrong based on whether I think it is.

I have made no bones about my beliefs being rooted in Christianity. There are people that would call themselves Christian that would disagree with my beliefs.

But, if someone asks me my opinion I'm going to provide my opinion, not someone else's. I also believe that society isn't always right. Church society in Europe in the middle ages made bad decisions. So did Roman society relative to people being fed to lions. So society has proven that it isn't infallible. And then in today's world you still have bull fights and the running of the bulls. Some people would argue that's wrong.

I don't make my decision on what's right or wrong based on what's good for me. If I was going to do that then I'd probablly make very different decisions than I do today.

I base right and wrong on what I think is right or wrong based on my Biblical views. I find myself in the wrong often.

Being wrong doesn't scare me. I'm a work in progress.