Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

[Doug R.]

Ok I wrote this up last night and then it got lost so here are my questions:

1) Can a person have more then one attack going at a time? Can I attack Bill and Sue and wait for them both to respond?

2) Can more then one person attack one? After I attack both Bill and Sue can they both attack me while I am offline?

3) If no to the previous the it would be great for me to have an accomplice who makes sure to attack me and then cancel it before I accept or it goes through. This would stop me from being attacked by anyone.

4) Do I have a chance to eat healing foods before accepting the attack?

5) Can I attack myself and not accept?

6) If I am in a car or other fast moving vehicle that can go from point A to point B in one turn and attack someone else in the car would movement be paused for up to a day even though we could go through multiple towns in that period?

7) If I am on foot and someone is in a car, can I stop them from traveling by attacking someone in the car?

8) How about on ships? seems easy to code around just making a point.

9) Seems to take power out of the attacker and to much to the defender. If I know I am going to lose, stalling as much as possible seems my best option.

10) Are you told you have a pending attack before you log into your character?

11) Can I switch characters without responding to the attack? Seems like if we are not told we are being attacked and switching characters counts as accepting would be a work around to delaying. But with the current bug of viewing other characters this could cause someone to accept an attack prematurely.

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) N/A
4) Yes
5) No, we'll prevent that
6) Currently yes, unless a better solution is presented
7) Yes, unless a better solution is presented
8) Undocking would be prevented until attacks are canceled or resolved.
9) Stalling is a problem, yes. Seko raised valid points.
10) That's is a possibility under discussion
11) No

[Doug R.]

... Upon initiation of the attack, an event is generated, tiredness is applied....

Any way that could be changed so you're not penalized for canceling an attack?

I like this idea. Raising the axe to someone isn't the same as slashing this persons head open, and shouldn't spend tha same amount of stamina. Maybe 50% tiredness when cancelling? It would even alow RP-moves like threatening someone!

Since all kinds of bad things happen when you're tired, allowing tiredness to be applied after the attack is resolved puts the attacker, who may be offline at the time, at a very serious disadvantage. They may be drug off easily, etc. By applying tiredness immediately when the attack is initiated, the attacker can then immediately eat food to remove tiredness.

[OvertNi]

Stalling is going to be the biggest problem, just as Seko says. And it will be very effective. These new changes will put an end to surprise deaths, and make it much easier to defend a town. It will also be much easier to catch and kill the attackers.

I'm not going to like these new changes. Of course, I'm a very active player, so of course I'm not going to like them.

[SekoETC]

If tiredness is applied in the beginning and the defender stalls for hours, the attacker would apparently rest normally each hour and be less tired when they become draggable again.

Would it still be possible to initiate dragging on someone and then initiate combat, so that you could drag them if combat is successful? Of course it would be a bit nerfed because you couldn't drag someone repeatedly within seconds because you wouldn't know when the target was going to let the attack be processed, but at least it would be useful if the first door you dragged them through was locked.

[Ryaga]

This is really, hands down, terrible.

This makes it easier for people who aren't playing fair to do so even more effectively. "These guys attacked me! Come online and start dragging/queuing up strikes!"

It doesn't actually address any of the problems with the current system at ALL. It's still going to be crossbow/steel battle axe fests with no other weapon ever used, and pretty roleplayless combat. The system doesn't promote roleplaying, just waiting.

This is asynchronous is a completely otherwise synchronous game. 24 hours is enough time for someone to alert another town on the radio and them be there in 24 hours.

[Joshuamonkey]

It doesn't actually address any of the problems with the current system at ALL. It's still going to be crossbow/steel battle axe fests with no other weapon ever used, and pretty roleplayless combat. The system doesn't promote roleplaying, just waiting.

Just saying this doesn't make it true. It wouldn't necessarily change what weapons are used, but other things would be improved compared to how they are now. How things are now isn't hard to beat.

I'm still not convinced that the proposed system would be worse than the current one. The main thing is just working out the specifics.

Would it still be possible to initiate dragging on someone and then initiate combat, so that you could drag them if combat is successful? Of course it would be a bit nerfed because you couldn't drag someone repeatedly within seconds because you wouldn't know when the target was going to let the attack be processed, but at least it would be useful if the first door you dragged them through was locked.

I like this idea. I would add that people should be able to initiate dragging on someone who is in combat. The dragging just shouldn't be processed until after the combat is resolved. In the case of the defender, however, they would still need to be given time to retaliate to the attack though.

[phoenixannwn]

Look, I know we're all irritated with that nameless newspawn who gets his hands on a weapon and comes in and kills off our favorite character, but this completely ruins the element of surprise!
Point is, yeah, if you're sleeping, you probably can't defend yourself, and they may able to get off several shots before you come to full coherence and can defend yourself.
Also: define "accept the attack" 'cause from what it sounds like, to accept the attack it sounds like you just have to look at it and that doesn't make any sense.

And as far as slapping goes, it should give you 0% tiredness, since it's doing 0% damage/you're using 0% strength.

[Doug R.]

Also: define "accept the attack" 'cause from what it sounds like, to accept the attack it sounds like you just have to look at it and that doesn't make any sense.

No need to define it - that is basicly what it is. In time there may be options, but for now it's just a guarantee that a character has a chance to heal/speak/roleplay before he's hacked to pieces.

[muidoido]

I definitely don't like the way it sounds... One shouldn't have time to eat/do whatever when an axe is coming down on his head, unless he survived the first strike. It looks like a way to make the elders immortal, since they'll have millions of healing foods and followers to fight for him. Between each accepted attack he will have time to heal from the previous one. All he has to do is stall for long enough until his stomach digests the healing food.

[phoenixannwn]

Um, how can you do anything if just looking at it accepts it? Like, open the character page and boom! Hit accepted. That doesn't make any sense. Not that I don't like it--I don't think you should be able to do anything before a hit if you don't expect it either. Maybe if they've already hit you, you can have some time before you accept to do things (in a fight, your adrenaline speeds your reactions so everything seems to slow down).
IDK, I haven't been able to use the new fighting system yet, so I can't say for sure, but my first impression isn't good. :/

[muidoido]

...Resolving the attack just means that the player of the attacked character clicks a button to finish the attack...

[Drael]

I like pretty much all of this.

Yay. !!!!

This will so improve cantr.

A few comments. If you introduce stomach capacity, then it should be possible to re-introduce energy foods.

And dragging obviously needs a re-write. It should be able to fail for the day/time period, rather than just need grips adjusted. An armed person, who can block with a sheild is not easy to wrestle to the ground, especially without the draggers getting hurt. In addition to dragging taking some time period ie a project etc like combat, and being able to fail so the person cant be dragged at all at that time - the draggers should be able to be hurt in the attempt by the draggee's weapon. Objects like nets, lasso's etc could give a dragging bonus.

If dragging were much harder, then we could put that nerf to bed too. And then it becomes much less of an issue, who can drag whom when in the combat sequence in the new rules (because dragging should not be a core combat mechanic anyway! Its dumb :/ Dragging should be for policing and prisoner taking etc, not for general combat)

[Drael]

Re: agility and ranged versus melee etc -

More random thoughts:

I think youd add alot to combat weapon variability, if you introduced a "defense value" to weapons. Rapier, sabre, whip, polearms, spear etc could have a defense value.

Last time people dissed the idea because it is extra work introducing a new data feild. Well hey, your doing reworking on the system, much more than a new feild, so perhaps something to consider.

If weapons had some other value than skillweighting and damage, they could further be distiguished in function. Weapons could also have a tiredness value, so that lumbering heavy weapons like battle axes and claymores, and winding crossbows is much harder than stabbing with a dagger.??

It would be also interesting if melee versus ranged weapons functioned differently. Perhaps only ranged can attack to/from a vehicle and across longer distances when travelling?

I think this is relevant because part of why the old combat system is bad, isnt just because isnt nerfed to peices with exploits - its also because its kinda "flat". The lack of detail in areas like weapons is part of this (if weapons were more different and useful for different things) IMO.

Although agility and such will add alot to the game - if it gets put in. Might I suggest that less encumbered (less stuff in inventory), sheildless, or lighter sheilded and lightly armed people can use their agility much more effectively? It would be a great way to enable the "light fighter" more in the game.

[SumBum]

Dragging is not always done with bad intent. Dragging people to safety is just as important in defense. There are also RP purposes or simply working around the sleeper aspect of Cantr when people need to be moved from one location to another. I don't want to have to wait one day per passenger to clear out a van.

It would be nice if there were an option to allow certain people to drag your char without the hindrance of strength/skill. Then you could set "friendlies" or your char's spouse/partner to be able to move you no matter what (tiredness given to the draggers could still apply). It was very frustrating traveling with a very sleepy partner through empty towns and I had to wait sometimes over a week for the other player to log on and climb into the vehicle so we could leave. If the other char could've selected mine as someone allowed to drag them, it would've been a piece of cake and not such a huge waste of time.

[Joshuamonkey]

You're right about dragging SumBum, and we're hoping to change it so that it can work in the many different situations.

If weapons had some other value than skillweighting and damage, they could further be distiguished in function. Weapons could also have a tiredness value, so that lumbering heavy weapons like battle axes and claymores, and winding crossbows is much harder than stabbing with a dagger.??

It would be also interesting if melee versus ranged weapons functioned differently. Perhaps only ranged can attack to/from a vehicle and across longer distances when travelling?

I very much like the tiredness idea. Also, I think Doug mentioned the melee, ranged thing in his post. That should change also in my opinion.