Let's talk about 20-year-olds

[Father Brian]

Hello there, I'm Father Brian!

I started playing in April. None of my characters are older than 25. It'll be a good long while before my oldest characters escape being 20-years-old. Yes, escape.

Cantr, we need to talk about how you treat new players.

I have played many straight-PVP MMOs, and never before have I been welcomed by the veteran playerbase with such overt and pervasive hostility. Even EVE Online and Urban Dead are friendlier to new players than Cantr's playerbase. For a game with threads about getting new players, and fear of the game dying, the playerbase seems to have very little actual intention of making the game welcoming to new people. I actually held off from making this post for over a month, because I thought perhaps I had just had an uniquely bad experience. Since then, my initial impressions have been confirmed again and again, and while there are absolutely characters (and likely the players behind those characters) who do not follow the trends I've listed below, these people are sadly in the minority.

Let's begin with the overall problem: Cantr players have zero trust in 20-year-old characters, newspawns and otherwise, which has translated into contempt, paranoia, and hair-trigger violence towards them. I can break this distrust down further, into 1: fear of 'crazy' newspawns, 2: a great sense of entitlement towards newspawns, 3: a fear that all newspawns will turn out to be thieves and killers, and 4: that you're either a newspawn, or you're no longer 20-years-old.

1: Crazy Newspawns! It's accepted that there is a widespread trend of players spawning in places/with stats they dislike and they do ~craaazy~ things to get themselves killed. Accepted, but perhaps not true. I've only seen it happen once, maybe twice, but holy shit do people label newspawns crazy the moment they are the slightest bit aggressive, devious, or otherwise not content to sit around farming. And then they're killed (or dragged into prison to starve to death). This leads to eye-rolling, exasperation at what players perceive to be OOC motivation behind actions and easy and unquestioned justification for executing new characters. One of my characters was accused of being crazy for questioning if the immediate execution of a motorbike thief was necessary. I had to actually defend the sanity of my character simply because she believed in mercy.

2. Newspawns belong to you! A newspawn arrives in your town, therefore it must help you build up your town. Agency and self-determination are not included in its rights. I've seen old characters get very put out when newspawns leave, including a memorable time when one town leader ranted at length and had to be calmed down by that characters spouse. Rather than giving them reasons to invest in your town, or engaging them and making sure your town is fresh and exciting, players seem to see newspawns as a resource to be exploited rather than actual people who want to have FUN. And how proud of it some of you are!
When I spawn into a town, I want to be able to do things, maybe check out the surroundings simply because I've never been to this region before. Let them. Give them a bike, tell them to come back for food and tools, and hint that maybe you've got an expedition by boat or by car in the future. Offer newspawns something more than just grinding resources. The new players will hate it and stop playing that character and the veterans already have plenty of characters who already do that. Stop making the newspawn experience so damn boring and they'll want to come back.

3. We're not all thieves and killers. We're not. But then, that's exactly what a 20-year-old would say, isn't is? Many of my honest, straight shooting characters are now dead, simply because they cannot get ahead in this game. My most successful characters are my pirate and my thief. Unlike the rest of my characters, neither of them has ever been successfully locked up, because they know better than to stick around when a 40-year-old starts interrogating them. One of my characters was dragged into prison after a day of spawning, left there without having been given anything, and was only released when he was at 98% starvation. He died without ever having gotten any items. His crime? He was mute, and newspawns who don't introduce themselves are not trustworthy.

4. Once a newspawn, always a newspawn. Until you're 30, of course. Then, welcome to polite society, citizen! Here, have the keys to the town!

Ingame culture has developed such that older characters can kill, imprison, and otherwise abuse 20-year-olds and nobody cares. There doesn't have to be a crime broken, evidence of wrong-doing, or even rational justification. One of my honest characters was attacked full-strength with a battle-axe by a town leader (who up to that point had behaved in a perfectly normal fashion) because he'd left without saying "goodbye". That is an actual thing that happened. And it happened in less than a month of me playing. Nobody in town was fazed. 20-year-olds are fully disposable.

My characters are interrogated about their belongings when they travel to new towns, radio messages are sent out asking 'if anyone's "lost" a newspawn' or if [insert name here] is a known thief, they are dragged into prisons arbitrarily, dragged off the abandoned lockless vehicles they've picked up in the equally abandoned and lockless towns they walked through, they are grievously and sometimes fatally attacked for the pettiest of perceived slights, and they are accused of being 'crazy' (aka deathwish trolls) if they challenge the status-quo. I am almost universally despised and distrusted because of the young age of my characters despite having done nothing to offend anyone. It has left me questioning why I continue to play, and I am certain it has contributed to other new players abandoning it.

I also have this sinking feeling that this post is going to be interpreted as a troll post and deleted. It is not. I like this game very much and really would love to see it have more players — and with the slow death of Urban Dead (and its spin offs), and the decline of similar web-games, I think this game could draw in more players. But I cannot justify recommending this game to other web-game players if they'll simply be shit on for their first 200 days. If Cantr wants to keep new players, the change is going to have to come from its veteran players. There needs to be a serious change in attitude if this game is to have any newbie retention at all.

[LittleSoul]

2. Newspawns belong to you! A newspawn arrives in your town, therefore it must help you build up your town. Agency and self-determination are not included in its rights. I've seen old characters get very put out when newspawns leave, including a memorable time when one town leader ranted at length and had to be calmed down by that characters spouse. Rather than giving them reasons to invest in your town, or engaging them and making sure your town is fresh and exciting, players seem to see newspawns as a resource to be exploited rather than actual people who want to have FUN. And how proud of it some of you are!

I.. was literally talking about how newspawns are an asset and should be treated fairly in that post Wow. Let me break down my reply for you since you were so upset by it you directly point it out in your rant.

And then you sometimes get those pesky newspawns whom want everything crystal clear and in print so there is sense of obligation left over after the job is done.

This was a reference to one of my -own- newspawns who literally wrote out a contract for her own employment because she didn't want to feel obligated by her employer to stay working for who knows how long.

I agree with you both though. Newspawns are an asset. Even if they die, they still did work for you for -free- at that point as morbid as that sounds. If they live, hopefully they're a more than just useful addition to the economy as well.

I don't even know how to explain this more than it explains itself. Newspawns are an asset.. that wasn't sarcasm, and the whole 'if they die they worked for free for you' thing is just a fact. That's what happens sometimes - I've had newspawns do that. They work for a REALLY long time because I don't know what to do with them and then I get tired of seeing them on my character screen and let them starve. Why you took that post so personally.. I'll chock that up to being emotional because you're pissed off.

As for the rest of it, I agree with you. I think people do take newspawns as cheap, and as resources in a lot of cases. Mine try not to kill them if they can help it, and I've defended plenty of newspawns (including my own) from ageist characters. While there is something of a general culture of treating newspawns as unreliable, untrustworthy, etc, etc.. there are plenty of places and characters who are not like that. I can name at least five or six places off the top of my head right now. I don't believe we're actually the minority, either, honestly, but I think the ones who are the worst tend to have the power over their respective towns.

Anyway. When newspawns steal from a town they need to expect that there are going to be consequences. Personally, I don't think it should be death, but people who care about their town aren't going to let them go scott free. I also agree people should give them more leeway for error, make things more exciting for them, and stop treating them like property as I was never a fan of that when I was new to the game either.. but the rest of it is just part of the game. Thieves get attacked. Old characters are suspicious of young ones with nice things. Newspawns are called crazy when they act crazy - yeah, crazy. The newspawns I've all seen called that typically were yelling a lot of nonsense and were kind of saying fuck it at the end because they either got caught stealing, or wanted to die. They're not the majority. Most just leave town when they get pissed off - they're not the crazy ones. Just defiant, which is totally fine and shouldn't be punished.

It is in game culture. Not all a healthy one, or one that's appealing to new players, but I just figured out how to deal with it so that my characters don't get killed. Should it change? Yes. I think so, but if it doesn't.. it's not hard to keep a character alive and without suspicion if you keep your head down, have patience, prepare, etc until its all clear and you don't have to worry about it anymore because you have a vehicle or whatever and aren't at the mercy of the town you're in.

So with that.. I'd like to end with saying while I can appreciate your message, as emotional as it is, I don't appreciate the passive aggressive tone at the point you reference my post, because that's uncalled for and it was taken out of context.

[Axiom]

Father Brian, I've had similar experiences, and I agree it's very problematic and off-putting. I'd say at least 75% of my active characters have been personally subjected to undeserved or disproportionate hostility, sometimes outright violence. I've never seen anything like this in any other game and have been absolutely floored by it. It completely mystifies me that people are so confused about why Cantr doesn't have new players when this is how they're treated. I'd like to quote something Kyriel said in the other thread:

Some while back, a character spawned in a town where I was one of the more active people. I quickly picked up on a few things that made me realize that this was actually a new player, and I tried helping him out and showing him what to do. Discovering how to take things out of containers and eat, he tried out a bit of each of the types of food available outside. And then one of the town's older members chose that moment to wake up and yell at him for being greedy, try to shake him down, ask for help dragging him. The new guy freaked out, stammered apologetically that he'd already eaten the food, and then went quiet. Twenty days later, heart attack. One new player slammed out of the game by an awful and completely unnecessary reception.

This is really telling, isn't it?

[Father Brian]

So with that.. I'd like to end with saying while I can appreciate your message, as emotional as it is, I don't appreciate the passive aggressive tone at the point you reference my post, because that's uncalled for and it was taken out of context.

Not at all. The reason I linked to your post was partly due to your 'morbid' enjoyment of having dead newspawns enrich your economy, but mostly because you had the decency to include the quote pyramid, which is a showcase of people boasting about their exploitative systems of tricking newspawns into doing work for them. And aren't they proud.

[Friar Briar]

In my opinion, and I'm painting this in the broadest, most general terms, this negative treatment or view of newspawn generally arises from a complacent and stagnant monoculture that exists in-game.

There's been much discussion of this in the past from experienced players. With this post, I'm seeing the new players' perspective on this issue.

On a personal note and maybe a player tip: I've been playing for almost a year now. From some hard-earned experience, I've learned to avoid certain towns, certain cultures, and most certainly some players that I simply do not enjoy interacting with. I have enough experience now to know where and how to carve out an enjoyable niche for myself. But it does take some time, observation, and trying things out, and for this game, especially, new players do not have an easy time getting through those beginning hurdles.

[Marian]

I know this thread is just going to turn into a big thing complaining about bad town leaders, I'll take another tact.

None of my new bunch has reached 30 yet either, but I've had more trouble with sleepy leaders than outright violent ones. Obviously it's still an issue if your own characters have dealt with it, but fwiw it seems way less common than it used to be. It may be a regional thing too, I don't know...most of my chars have been on Treefeather which is supposed to be the more 'civilized' island, and been able to talk their way out of most situations where I deliberately had them testing boundaries to see what they could get away with. It all depends on where you spawn, of course, but for minor offenses, a simple apology goes a long way, and there are even certain things you can get away with while in the clueless newspawn phase that would be more difficult with an older character. (I usually play females too, possibly that's also a factor?)

Also, I guess I don't have an overly confrontational play style? Usually I start my chars off trying to fit into their community at least the first few days as their personalities develop, and even if they decide they strongly dislike the place they start making plans to leave or do something sneaky rather than turn it into an open confrontation. Not saying I play them all alike, but unless they have a serious lack of common sense it doesn't take long to develop an understanding that these 'towns' are really no more than small tribal communities and the ones who holds the keys hold absolute power. Read the laws again - you don't have constitutional rights. Drop modern OOC ideas like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. A peasant wouldn't mouth off to a king in medieval times and a Cantr town before you get a decent vehicle is no different. The way newspawns are viewed is one of the few uniquely Cantrian cultural things that has developed naturally, and understanding the power dynamics and working with them is a part of the social aspect of the game.

Slaughtering someone over a stolen bike is still a ridiculously stupid thing, though, no matter how you look at it, and especially with NDS being a thing. Attacking someone without even attempting to talk to them first is also kind of nutty. If any of my characters witnessed their townspeople acting like bloodthirsty lunatics and weren't in a position to change things they'd pack up in a hurry and shake the dust off their feet on the way out. But violence aside, general distrust for newspawns, in a variety of ways, is pretty common.

But there are a lot of younger chars out there who would happily strip the storeroom bare and load it up on a stolen raker, because with no attempt to interact they simply have no connection to your town or anyone in it yet so why shouldn't they? That's the real concern, that you've got a person in your midst that's completely unknown. With newspawns and it's a gamble every time. Sometimes you get a veteran player who will exploit your trust and every weakness in your town hard. Mostly you get someone who will introduce themselves and then fall asleep forever holding all the clothes and tools you gave them. And occasionally you get one of those rare few who will stick it out and become a part of the community.

But frustratingly enough, it seems like my more trustworthy and helpful chars always wind up spawning in towns that either ignore them or treat them like crap, and the towns that go out of their way to be supportive and welcoming instead get sleepers and walkers.

...of course someone will eventually come and point out that back in the day when you could get killed for taking things that are handed out for free to newspawns now or when towns would routinely butcher sleepers or anyone who didn't introduce themselves we had way, way more players than we do now, so I don't think it's necessarily a factor in driving away new players. There was a point early on where most of my chars started off as newspawn thieves...those few who got away with it or surrendered to the right people went on to be some of my favorite chars, and I never would have considered quitting over all the ones who died.

The radio and the amount of vehicles available now has really killed the fun of this though, gone are the days of having any realistic chance of escaping unless you're stealthy, and openly mocking people as you ran around looting was always half the fun.

edit: And I wouldn't characterize the post linked as being about 'boasting about exploiting newspawns'. That whole section you linked and seem to be getting genuinely offended over you're taking out of context - the discussion came about in answer to complaints about leaders taking it personally when a newer character was talking about leaving, and the responses (mostly tongue in cheek, which I thought was obvious) were about why the opposite attitude made more sense. Offering people a chance to work for tools and vehicles to make their lives easier is not 'exploiting' them. Whether or not they choose to die or earn their things and move on is their own business, but it's a simple fact that something like 90% of characters don't make it past their first couple of years, no matter what you do. If you can get them on a project first, at least they're contributing in a minor way as a sleepworker, even if their continued wakefulness and RP would of course be 1000x more appreciated.

In conclusion: Marian used Wall of Text! It's super effective! My post wins, now close the thread.

[Axiom]

@Marian: I've only been attacked by town leaders twice, but I find that people instantly disrespect and dislike me the second I do anything that deviates even slightly from the accepted script. One problem I had in particular was that once I figured out how the economics of this game worked, namely that there's tons of abandoned vehicles and whatnot everywhere but leaders want you to work for months to get any of it, I started trying to get crowbars with all of my characters to go salvaging. This seemed like a perfectly reasonable and defensible course of action to me, but apparently asking for a crowbar sets off everyone's thief-dar. On multiple occasions I found myself an instant pariah for expressing an interest in a crowbar for the purpose of legitimate salvaging. Seriously, just having a crowbar makes me a thief? What do you think I'm going to do, try to break into your storeroom right in front of your eyes?

I've had my male and female characters treated about equally as far as this goes, so I don't think gender is really a concern.

[Marian]

One problem I had in particular was that once I figured out how the economics of this game worked, namely that there's tons of abandoned vehicles and whatnot everywhere but leaders want you to work for months to get any of it, I started trying to get crowbars with all of my characters to go salvaging.

See if you were smart you'd just ask for the steel and make it yourself.

[Friar Briar]

I think she did.

Anyway, I also have one character who really wanted to be a professional recycler/demolitions expert/salvage operations type person, but I was deathly afraid she would be killed. Tearing down useless machines and objects in abandoned towns to reclaim the materials is seen as theft? But they're all gathering dust and nobody's using them!

My ooc reason was because building destruction and clearing of the map wasn't happening fast enough. I as the player wanted to return some spots to the pure and pristine states they once were. And maybe that was too ambitious a plan.
Still haven't quite given up on it though...

[Kyriel]

(On a related note, while I can understand wanting to discourage saboteurs with the lengthy time required to dismantle machines, it's... a tad overcompensating to make it take as long as building it in the first place.)

I did have one character set off on a bold quest to put together materials for a crowbar, only to get foiled by her own poor planning. (Forgot I'd need a bellows.) Another character did likewise and got foiled by, uh, the fact that most of his island has no buildings. And a third succeeded at it and has never really used it.

Some of the things I did shortly after I first came back to the game seem a bit silly in hindsight, but it's not like I'd done much before and barely remembered the game existed. And some stuff made even more sense in hindsight. Like when I spawn in a town with strict laws and high taxes even for residents, I apparently took a look at it and walked off within a couple days. Forgot why I'd left so quickly later on, then came across a note with their laws elsewhere... and was like, "oh yeah, that's why I left that town. Good reason."

I had an amused thought though that I could set up a literal slave empire and still treat newspawns better than many towns do, though. I've seen towns that seemed to expect you to just stay there and work for them. Forever.

[Marian]

I think she did.

Anyway, I also have one character who really wanted to be a professional recycler/demolitions expert/salvage operations type person, but I was deathly afraid she would be killed. Tearing down useless machines and objects in abandoned towns to reclaim the materials is seen as theft? But they're all gathering dust and nobody's using them!

Ah, but this isn't really a 20 year old thing, you'd be at risk anytime your character was asleep in an abandoned town no matter what they were doing.

Tip: make friends and get some nice gear, whether you can salvage it or have to suck it up and get a job. Doesn't matter how old you are then, two or three people with access to something they could theoretically drag someone into automatically get more respect.

More general tip: If at all possible, stay in your spawn town long enough to get decent clothes and gear. Lose the hide and fur, get an iron shield, and I'm a big fan of the pickaxe until I can get a proper weapon. Then when you travel somewhere new you don't immediately get registered in everyone's head as a newspawn. Talking about trading plans also makes you seem more legit. And I can't stress enough how far being polite and articulate can get you...though I do get that just doesn't work at all for RPing certain personality types.

[Wolfsong]

I have no problem with the culture of newspawn hostility that seems to exist in many towns in Cantr. As I've said before, I love that sort of interaction. It's the smiling, pampering places that put me off the most - but then I thrive on conflict. I find it very easy to build character through adversity.

Story time example below:

My very first character on Cantr spawned into that situation and was immediately thrown into prison for picking up stone resources off the ground, and was only released a year later. That newspawn of mine went on to steal a motorcycle from that same town and ride it away to another town. In that town, he was questioned by the (rightfully) suspicious town leader about why he wanted a screwdriver to break a lock on his own vehicle. He lied and said it was because the only key was with an older friend (implied romantic relationship) of his who he'd had a falling out with. The town leader accused him of being a thief, and put out a call on the radio about a stolen motorcycle. If the radio came back confirming that the bike was stolen, the leader said, he'd throw my newspawn into prison and return the bike. My guy was hostile, stating that he didn't steal it and to go ahead and put the call out on the radio, blah blah. Apparently the leader from the last town was asleep, or "busy", when that call went out, because nobody ever confirmed the bike was actually stolen. My guy was grudgingly given some raw resources to make a screwdriver, and broke the lock. Afterwards, he moved to the next town and traded for some steel - this time not leaving the bike, or letting on there was no lock in it already.

He eventually found an abandoned town and built a new lock, changed the name of the bike, and gathered some resources. Then he rode into the next town as a trader, and so on and so on, until he ended up in an important town and decided to put down roots as a citizen-trader. Then, after gathering a bit of resources, off he went to the mountains to trade. He hopped out, made his introductions, and began to gather some gold. While I was offline, a random woman asked for help dragging him into a room (the rest of the town cheerfully obliged without asking her why she wanted him dragged) and then proceeded to start attacking him with a steel sabre. My character spent a few days begging her to let him live ICly before I figured out I could drag a note under the door. At 80% injured he dragged a note under the door to something of the effect of "This crazy bitch is killing me, please help, I'm a trader from (important city on the island). I don't want to die!" The tortoiseshell shield he had absorbed most of the next attack and left him 97% injured. (Remember, this is before NDS.) The townspeople started trying to break down the door. Her next swing missed. The door's broken open and my character is dragged out.

He's given healing food, an iron shield (for protection from animals, since he was so injured) and everyone is horrified and really, really sorry. He retreats to his bike, scarfs the food, and keeps the shield. He doesn't trade there, but shakily (after a few days) drives to another town, and another, etc., trading there more successfully... especially with his new story of murder attempts in the mountains. He didn't make much trading, but cemented a small reputation as "someone who trades" rather than "someone who steals" despite his young age. He now had an iron shield, some resources, a bike with fuel, etc. He traded some of his resources for steel, and made a crowbar in one of the sleepier towns in the area. When asked why, he repeated his murder attempt story, and how he never wanted that to happen again, etc.

He went back through the mountains, but avoided that town. Instead, he found an abandoned town with locked buildings. He broke into one, found kilos of steel, iron, weapons, exotic gems, the lot. He put new locks on all the buildings and from there he was a trader in name only - using that to explain where his newfound wealth suddenly came from. He salvaged vans, stationcars, ships, etc., all under the guise of being a trader and became very successful and rich... but never really well known because he didn't make friends.

Because of his experiences, he hated authority figures and avoided talking to town leadership, with one notable exception that... caused drama. But he was still one of my most favorite characters. Compare that to the numerous happy campy smiley fun time places I spawned where my characters became quiet sleepers and faded away. I won't trade xenophobia and hatred of young people for all the world in Cantr.

[Kyriel]

There's the thing. Becoming bored and going to sleep just because you spawned in a town that doesn't treat you like garbage... is your own choice. You always have the option of going somewhere else or doing something interesting with your life. That just may be done with better preparation than having to walk away from your spawn town naked, starving, without even a shield. I don't want every single one of the characters I play to be ones that are cynical, bitter, and hate the world because of all the things they've gone through for no good reason during their youth.

[sherman]

This thread is kinda alarming though I personally haven't seen many things described here. Now I personally always try to help newspawns (If that suits my chars personality) And I have actually done contract with two newspawns which I think were worth it. Got nice company driving around and newspawns do get vehicle or something else against x-amount of work. Good deal and everyone got what they want. Also I think deal was fair and got great discount.

There's many kinds of newspawns and every one is valuable and then there's newspawns who spawn and walk away immediately but generally older players and chars should try help them. I know newspawn thieves don't bring trust but there's also been many great ones and helping them into life has been great enjoy

[Lapallanch]

Well...my newspawn seems to fit in around the area...even though he acts like a total baby. He's even been messing around with "telephones" which are apparently radio transmitters.

Looking forward to life!