Yet Another Topic On In Game Religions

[Schme]

Here is yet another topic on in game religions.

I know it has been discussed alot, but not alot seems to be done.

It seems that almost everywhere you go in Cantr, people just exist, never questioning why this is.

This is rather absurd. People , throughout history (as a whole, that is) do not just accept that they exist and that the world, animals, plants, ect., exist without question. Everywhere in the world, people have ideas as to where they came from, how things came about, and why we exist, and so on. If they didn't, they'ed probably go insane.

People make life choices because of religion, societies and social interactions are based almost entirely on them (for the most part of the world) and religion is just very important in life in general.

Think about it. How can your character just sit through life, never wondering?

Perhaps part of the problem is that the character is played by the player, and the player knows where the character came from (an electrical machine)

But think of it from your character's perspective, or your own. Could you just be born and never wonder? I don't think any sane person could.


But what's to be done about it? Well, there is only one thing to do. Should an explanation not exist, one must be made. In other words, YOU have to make up explanations for your, and for other's, existence, aswell as for the existence of everything else. You can't wait for someone else to come up with something, because they won't. It has to be you. And don't think you can't do it. If there is no one else giving another explanation, then yours is excelent by default.

Now, I'm not talking the mad profit, and I'm not saying any of your characters should pull a Charles Manson or David Koresh. I'm just saying you should at least try and explain everythings.

It's not hard either. It doesn't have to be deep or very sensical, the explanations just have to explain the stuff. If you need inspiration, try reading some aboriginal creation stories and other old stories explaining why things exist (i.e. where did the rabbits come from? Why are there trees? What are they? Why does it rain? What is water and how did it get here? Et cetra et cetra.)

Some of them are terribly complicated, and some not, but yours do not have to be. I suggest them as an example because they are good. They explain things.

And, should the need arise for the creation of complex religions, the old stories and texts can be interpreted into other things, or whatever, divulging into sects, or whatever else you like.

We could really make this alot more society ish like and such if we did all the things I say, as I posses devine wisdom, and am never wrong.

Listen to the voice within.

Peace.

[formerly known as hf]

Loads of Cantrians discuss 'where they came from' - especially when weird things happen (someone being struck down by some outside force for being rude...)

There are also many religions discuss 'why' a character exists, if not maybe exactly where they came from

In real life, not everyone constantly wonders about how humans came to be, or what purpose their life is. Personally, I accept that I give any purpose to my life, not some kind of heavenly force. Many cantrians seem to think the same, wandering around, bumbling through their lives with 'narry a care in the worl'.
There ain't nothing wrong wit' that

[Schme]

Yes, but you grew up in England.

No, but really, think about it. Perhaps you as a person have become apathetic and accepting of your existence without need for a reason (weather that's good or bad, I do not know, I've never tried it), but would your character?

Think about it. Where in the world have people just never explained anything? Nowhere. People always come up with explanations. They have to, for there sanity.

See, you've come to accept your existence without a need for a reason or story behind it, right? OK, fair enough.

But, you also know the scientific reasons as to why trees go, why the sky is blue, why water is so watery, and so on. Cantr people do not have that science, and they cannot discover it, as they are made out of code. And so, consequently, they must devolop some sort of explanation. No person can live without the simple things being explained, weather that explanation be scientific or just a simple explanation. You have science and physics. They do not.

[Surly]

I think the point here is rather more that people reject religion without good reason. Religion has always been a way to explain and justify existance, and the majority of people go along with it anyway.

However, if you start a religion in Cantr... you will discover that people conciously refuse to believe. And this can only be for ooc reasons. For example in Kwor, and the K-island in general, the faith of the Holy Father is predominant. Yet there are surprisingly few believers, because so many people reject it. Because people are sceptics in RL, this reflects onto their characters... and consequently is hugely damaging to any belief that socities in Cantr can develop normally.

Characters should approach IC religion with an open mind, and generally with no previous experience of religion. However, this is far from the case...

[Cookie]

In real life, not everyone constantly wonders about how humans came to be, or what purpose their life is.

Yes they do, humans strive to know where they came from. Take the example of people who grew up an adopted child, most want to find they're real parents when the are grwon, why? For the same reasons the human race wants to know where they came from. Whether it be through religion or the NASA space programe.

As Surly said the reason Cantr people don't do this is based on OOC influence. People know the reason they're there, they registered to play a game then pressed a few buttons to start a character. I don't think there will ever be a time when Cantr isn't full of players who do not wish to get involved with in depth role play. Shame really.

[Okud]

I think that it has more to do with the wrong religions being preached in the game. Everyone jumps right to the monotheistic strand. When my charries see someone preaching "All praise Blobo, he made us all and he speaks to me" they don't give a damn about it, and suspect the preacher of being a con. I'd rather see some animism and the cult of ancestors for a start. They could evolve into something else.
BTW, in RL I'm not religious either, but my charries are not entirely like me.

[wichita]

Actually, I have come to not think of the where did we come from question. I don't think it's necessarily apathy, or a lack of faith, or an acceptance of faith...it's more just a refusal to dwell on it. Stuck between the athiesm / existence of diety, and then more importantly the evolution / thiestic evolution / creation debates, I have just come to the decision that the "where did we all come from question" is an impossible question to truly answer. You can't go back in time, so why does the past matter outside the context of searching for patterns of the past to help guide decisions for the future (don't worry history majors, I'm not writing you off ).

So the idea of having to question where you or the world came from, I don't think that is an entirely fair assumption. I believe many people in real life are perfectly happy with looking at a tree, recoginizing it as a tree and that it can be cut down for wood or used for shade or you can get fruit off it. It's important to point out that athiesm is still a religion. There is no such thing as a non-religious person. Evolution is nothing more than the Athiests' Creation Myth...the book of Genesis for much of the scientific community. What most people fail to realize is that it is just a theory, and not a perfectly sound one at that.


So what is my point here in this? I guess...thinking about "religious" matters is just as reasonable as ignoring them and both are religions.

You may chose some ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can chose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill.

[Schme]

Alright.

I have to agree. The real problem is that rather than trying to explain things, people are trying to pull Shoko Asahara's, trying to gain power. Well, people like that in Cantr, as in real life, are often told to go and screw themselves. The problem with that is that they're not trying to explain the world, or anything. They're just trying to tell people how great and devine they are, and that's not a religious leader, that's an MC.

What I'm talking is things that actually explain life and nature. I'm not saying things that will turn to building temples, or doing complex rituals, or anything like that. To be truthfull, normal religions devolop out of what people know and do anyhow. I mean, a tribe of people isn't just going to start building temples to some god if they don't even stay in the same place the whole year. Screw that, they're going to get food.

I'm not saying religious leaders, preachers, or whatever else. Just explanation, and perhaps a bit of ritual, is all.



You guys are quite right. That's what I was trying to say. The player knows where the character comes from. There computer machine. And therein is a great portion of the problem.




As for the whole "atheist" thing, well, your quite right. There are millions of people calling themselves atheists in the world. But atheist does not mean non-religious. It means adhering to no perticular religion officially. If you mean non-religious, well yes, there's tones of those aswell. But the thing is, that doesn't just come from nowhere. Nobody is going to just be born and say "You know what, I think I'm just going to be non-religious." The non religious phenomenon arises from the replacement of traditional definitions (I.e. The creator god was castrated and his boys fell into the sea, creating........) by science (and the big dusty stuff swirled and swirled......)

But if those new explanations do not exist or are unknown, they don't work, and proving that to someone is EXETREMlY difficult. In the real world, these things can only be proved with complex science type equipement, and even then, people don't really care. And in Cantr, that kind of equipement or interest is thousands of years away, and even then, those explanations are invalid, as Cantr is made of code.

And the reason that non religious people can be socialy acceptable is because the science is so widespread and taught in school. I mean, have you ever seen a molecule? Like hell you have. It was in a book.

But try telling a bunch of Papua New Guinian guys that the world was made of dust and stuff, or that a tree grows because of so and so, and they ask you to prove it, what the hell or you going to do? You look like a coke head. "The world is made of tiny tiney little pieces!"

"Yah, screw you, whitey."

It's not gonna happen.

And besides, as I said, science doesn't apply to Cantr, and so non religious people, well, it seems pretty screwed up to me.


But it is not surprising to me that, in Cantr, anyone trying to pull a Jesus Christ would not go far, as it would require his followers to drastically change there life, and nobody is interested in that kind of crap.



I'm not talking the catholic church or prophets or anything here.

I'm talking "People are made from the teeth of the great god......"

Just things to explain there existence. That's all I'm saying. Nothing significantly life altering. Just a "Not going completly crazy" sort of thing.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm making the effort. But you guys have to pitch in.

[The Sociologist]

I think that it has more to do with the wrong religions being preached in the game. Everyone jumps right to the monotheistic strand. When my charries see someone preaching "All praise Blobo, he made us all and he speaks to me" they don't give a damn about it, and suspect the preacher of being a con. I'd rather see some animism and the cult of ancestors for a start. They could evolve into something else.

Very good points. In fact, this is the key. Modern people are not that religious because they have scientific explanations for most things. So this represents a triumph of scientific rationalism. Bear in mind, though, that this is itself a doctrine and provides a cosmology. So Cantrians should develop cosmologies of their own.

An example. Many machines in Akypor Forest South were recently massively sabotaged. I had to log a request on Flyspray. How am I suposed to handle that IC? What did Comrade Fran do? Pray to the gods? Beseech the heavens or spirits? Some players will say you must ignore the results of exploits or bugs, but how do you ignore all iron production grinding to a halt for 7 days? How do you reassure people standing around waiting when everyone here agrees you shouldn't make long ooc speeches. This is precisely the sort of thing in-game cosmologies could be designed to cover.

So therefore, Cantrians do have a glaring need for cosmologies, and animism is certainly one possibility. As you suggest, however, braindead ooc borrowings from monotheistic religions aren't it unless enforced at the point of a sword, which is what happened historically in any case.

[Schme]

Exactly. I'm not saying pass yourself off as Glooscap or anything. All I'm saying is make up some explanations for things, the kind of explanations every sane person needs.

[Nick]

I'm guessing this post was made after you got an 'I don't know' response from my french character when you posed that question.

I'm more active than most Cantr players, and even I don't have the time to write up a religion upon demand. Give people time!

[SekoETC]

Read from bottom up. Irrelative stuff has been cropped off.

1171-0: Varian (leery bclub) says: "*nods his head*"
1170-7: Invis says: "Of course they can tell what they want to tell,
it's one's will to answer back or not. But noone should be mistreated
or insulted becaouse of his or her way of thinking. At least, this kind
of ugly behaviour isn't tolerated here in Quillanoi Forest(n)."
1170-7: Varian (leery bclub) says: "*nods his head gently while
looking to Matthew than turns to Invis* Hello sir i am Varian Grey, I think
there is a misunderstanding, i was talking about Clinton *points the
jail* he was insulting Dark incarnation. So you did the right think.. If
he causes some trouble when he gets out please let meknow also *winks*
i hate stubbern people. Anyway, may be we can have a chat about , where
and when to talk about different ideas or topics. I also think that
everyone has the right to say his ideas. It is you who decide whether it
is right or wrong! Do not you think so.. *Looks around to invite people
to the conversation*"
1170-7: Invis says: "The guy was chopping wood of our towns forest,
and he thought he could chop away and misbehave to the people and guests
of this town"
1170-7: Matthew (sword iron) says: "You know, Varian, it's an
interesting question about who should be allowed to say what. I think anyone
should be allowed to say anything, so long as they're not being outright
insulting."

1170-7: Matthew (sword iron) says: "No, Invis, he said that *Clinton*
was insulting Bob, which he was. That's Varian Grey, by the way, a new
recruit."
1170-7: Invis says: "Hello sir, may i know your name. I did say
nothing against Dark Incarnation or whatever it is called. You are wrong."
1170-7: You see Invis pointing at Varian (leery bclub).
1170-7: Invis says: "The town has changed, Tom*smiles*"
1170-6: Varian (leery bclub) says: "Hmm *looks at the traffic* I
guess that everyone in this community has the right to talk, new ideas
always brings new discoveries, and it will take our community higher. Also
i applaud Invis *applauds* for putting Clinton in jail because he was
using bad words. Although nobody has a problem with him he started to
insult "Dark Incarnation". What do you think about the right to talk
about whatever you want but obeying the moral rules."

1170-4: You say: "You want clear advice? Bond with people, talk to
them, they talk back to you. You all stay awake. Do not store big amounts
of food. If you have to keep your mind on the task when getting food,
you will not be lulled into the feeling of false safety, that you are
immortal because you have food. It is not only the body that requires
nourishment, but also the soul. Even if it's said that the only thing
needed to live is potatoes, I have not seen many people live long without
trying to archieve other goals than just farming food. They will try to
cover their nakedness. They will build weapons, shielding, tools. And
bonds with other people, communities. But every corpse you see, every
sleeper in town draws down the spirits. Many of those that look alive are
in fact already dead. But how to deal with them is the decision every
community must make for themselves."
1170-4: You point at Matthew (sword iron).

1170-3: Invis says: "Clintion was then..?"

1170-3: Tom T. says: "That's Bob."
1170-3: You see Tom T. pointing at you.
1170-3: Tom T. says: "No actually that's not the guy. The one we put
in there is Clinton he was complaining about Bob. That's what we call
him cause he say's he has no name."
1170-3: Invis says: "He might summon some of his spirits and unleash
at us,.*laughs*"
1170-3: Tom T. says: " Now he will probably beat on the door."
1170-3: Invis says: "Sorry for the disturbed guy."
1170-3: Tom T. says: "Ok thanks."

1170-3: You see Clinton (young collect qfn) being dragged from the
central area of Quillanoi Forest (north) to Public Library.

1170-3: Invis says: "Don't you try my patience, or you'll be a spirit
yourself."
1170-3: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "Shut your mouth you. I
don't need no wise puck neither. No you just keep to yourself and we all
gona get along got it?"
1170-3: Invis says: "ý'm digging a friend here, and if you dont
behave yourself, im going to dig another grave next to his one, just in
case.."
1170-3: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "Look I aint got long to
spend here so you all gonna make my time a whole lot nicer for me you
hear."
1170-3: Invis says: "I don't care about his spirits but he should
watch his language around, don't you agree Matthew?"
1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "Well, that's what he says. I
don't know much about strange things like spirits and demons, so I'm just
not passing judgement."
1170-3: Invis says: "I don't like his way neither, suit yourself to
the town, sir! Dont piss me"
1170-3: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "Is that right!"
1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "That's Bob, by the way. Well,
actually he's a nameless Dark Incarnation of the Unknown One who has been
sent by some mystical force to study death, and also life."
1170-3: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "I aint gotta tell you
whats wrong, you aint the problem. So don't make yourself one, you hear?"
1170-3: You see Matthew (sword iron) pointing at you.
1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "Hi, Invis. It seems Clinton
doesn't like Bob's ideas about life and death."
1170-3: Invis says: "Matthew, hey. And the young sir hello to you!
What is wrong"
1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "*sighes, shakes his head, and
returns to his wood*"
1170-3: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "...goes for the rest of
you as well."
1170-3: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "Hey old timer, I can go
some place lese if i need a moutful about how I should live my life. So
keep your mouth to yourself you ecentric fool. I gotta get some wood
while i'm here, don't need your boring speeches. Soon enough evetyone will
have this darn sickness what with you around, you talkin and all will
send the poor beggars to sleep."

1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "Having said that, the sleeping
sickness hit here a while ago, and I lost a lot of friends, so if you
have any common sense tips on how to prevent it that a straightforward man
like me can understand, then I'd be interested in hearing them."
1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "All this speak of spirits and
demons sounds somewhat outlandish, I mean, people spawn and people die,
but I just don't know about all this weird stuff."

1170-3: Matthew (sword iron) says: "Well, Bob, if I may call you
that, it's just that we like to get on with life, dealing with the
straightforward concerns of where the next meal is coming from."

1170-2: You see the dead body of a man in his twenties being pulled
to Quillanoi Forest (north), coming from Hotel & Restaurant Employee
Living Quarters.

1170-2: You say to Kyla (curious girl qfn1169 bshi): "As I said, I am
the Dark Incarnation. It is more of a title than a name, but people
seem to have an immediate need to use names. So call me what you like.
Indeed I would rather share my knowledge to the masses, but it tends to
arouse rather colourful reactions."

1170-2: Invis says: "we need a third one."

1170-2: Kyla (curious girl qfn1169 bshi) says to you: "wow sir, i am
officially enlightened... my name is kyla *smiles and extends her hand
to shake his* what's your name ? you seam a very knowledgable person"
1170-2: You say: "I do not like being interrupted. But in case you
failed to notice, I stopped talking an hour ago. There is more but I see
that most people here are not interested. One was, and I presumed the
source and prevention of such a common plague might be of general
interest. But seeing how little sleepers you have here, it is no wonder you
would rather forgot about the existance of such disease."

1170-2: Tramp says: "oy do not glare at me, and tom i wasnt talking
to you,i was talking about that sleep crap"

1170-2: Invis says: "Tom, follow me please. "
1170-2: You see Tramp pointing at you.

1170-2: Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) says: "Clinton
that's not advisable he has a right to his opinion."

1170-2: Invis says: "As i expected, Robert Chu died, of sleeping
decease, can someone help me please drag him out."

1170-2: You see Invis pointing at Clinton (young collect qfn).
1170-2: You see Invis pointing at you.
1170-2: Invis says: "Hello everyone! I'm Invis, some might not know
me. Whats the name of these people?"

1170-1: You say: "*Glances at the newspawn curiously.*"

1170-1: Clinton (young collect qfn) says: "Shut your mouth punk, else
I'll take your head off!"
1170-1: You say to Varian (leery bclub): "If you wish to learn more,
come talk to me. I'm afraid all this lecturing may turn tiresome, even
frightening for unprepared minds."

1170-1: You say: "No questions? Very well, moving on to the second
matter, the presense of soulless ones draws energy away from the living.
The corpses on the ground, or in unfinished graves, are seeking to fill
with spirit, but the life that once possessed them is gone to the
Shadow World. Thus they draw life from the living, and in some cases might
even capture the whole spirit of a person. But the corpse stays dead, no
matter how much life is absorbed into it, and what goes in is forever
lost. But - there are other spirits than those of humans. Sometimes such
can possess a body on the moment of death. Often it happens so swiftly
that the people around never notice a thing. No falling, no pain. But
usually after this the possessed is unable to communicate, they creep on
the edge of communities like shadows. They cannot feel pain, and their
senses are in many ways dulled. If it's a demon in question, they often
turn violent without understandable trigger. But even if the shadow
Spawn wouldn't reveal itself with acts of hostility, it still keeps
feasting on the lifepower of others, unnoticed. And the problem is that often
without the distinctive burst of violence, it is impossible to tell the
difference between a Shadow Spawn and a regular sleeper. It could be a
newspawn that died on the moment of spawning, never saying a thing. Or
it could be a well-equipped person who has lived a long life and in the
end turned into a vessel of a dark spirit. But when there's a large
number of sleepers present, there is reason to believe that at least one
of them is possessed by a demon, spreading on the sickness."

1170-1: You say: "The energy of potatoes is different from the energy
from higher products, cooked meat for example. They both satiate hunger
but unprocessed things do not feed the mind. It is not just the
strenght of the animal unleashed, but also the energy you put into cooking
enhanced by the fire and returning to your body through the food, much
stronger than before. But storing food for long makes it lose a part of
the energy bound to it, thus it should be consumed rather quickly after
processing. Do you have more questions about this matter?"

1170-1: You say: "I was sent by my divine Master, the Unknown One who
dwells in shadows. I am ready to share what I have learned, but it
seems not all here are ready to understand. *He leers at Tramp darkly.*"

1170-1: Varian (leery bclub) says: "Those reasons seems meaningful..
But when you first came in you said, you are SENT.. Who sent you Mr?"
1170-1: thoughtful youngster says: "he is talking about energy. if
the energy is unprosesd, then it will want to go to wence it came. so if
you eat the potatoes, then the potatoes will draw you and themselves to
the grownd, becous they came from the grownd. right?"
1170-1: Varian (leery bclub) says: "Hey Hey be cool.. Why you are
swearing, i asked a quesiton and he is returning. *Looks angry* There are
women around so be polite sir. "
1170-1: Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) says: "Are talking
to me tramp?"

1170-1: Tramp says: "what the fuck are you talking about?"

1170-1: You see Tramp pointing at you.

1170-1: You say: "'Things' - *he reads on a sharp voice*- 'that are
presumed to cause the sleeping sickness: One - Eating unprocessed food.
Two - Being close to Shadow Spawns and unburied corpses. Three - Being
alone for a long period of time. Four - Unwanted starvation.' *He looks
up from the note.* What this mean is for the first part, if you feast
on potatoes, your body will turn slow and in the end become a part of
the very earth that once grew those potatoes. Animals are full of energy,
but being unintelligent creatures, they are unable to emit this energy.
Thus people can only gain their strenght by eating the processed meat."

1170-0: You see Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) give some
potatoes to Tramp.
1170-0: Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) says: "Sorry I
didn't know you were working for us. Please sign the citizen and employee
list. "
1170-0: Tramp says: "e said to do collecting woods that people
abandoned"
1170-0: Tramp says: "i am working for matthew"
1170-0: Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) says: "Allright
Tramp there's a little. But your going to need to cook your next food are
do so work for us. "

1170-0: Tramp says: "oy giv me sum food will you *smells really bad*"

1170-0: You say: "*He glares up from his notes.* Somebody feed that
young man, will you? Now, about the sleeping sickness..."

1170-0: Tramp says: "im ungry"
1170-0: Tramp says: "oy can i ave sum food?"
1170-0: Varian (leery bclub) says: "Interesting sir. Who sent you for
the research? And did you find any clues about sleeping disease? *looks
interested* *keeps collecting wood*"

1170-0: Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) says: "Well you need
a name so I will call you Bob. And as long as you don't cause trouble
your welcome."
1170-0: You say: "Name... a name I do not have. What I am is the Dark
Incarnation, sent to research the nature of death. But death, what I've
learned from it, is often a rather simple event. So at the moment I am
studying what keeps people alive."

1170-0: Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) says: "Hello sir
what's your name? I'm Tom T."
1170-0: You see Tom T. (equipped, potentially dangerous) pointing at
you.

1169-6: Varian (leery bclub) says: "*looks to the vulgar man and
continues collecting wood without care*"

1169-6: You say: "This commotion... rather unnerving I should say...
*Wide blue eyes stare at all the people restlessly from the middle of
dark, greasy hair. Several bits and pieces have been plaited into his
hair, all of them of different resource, the conclusion nearing the level
of absurd. The ragged clothes are hanging on his skeletal body like
dusty sacks.*"

Now he only got halfway with his lecture before two newspawns got totally mad at him telling such nonsense...

1. Now people know that all you really need is food. But which one is more likely to keep you from falling asleep: That you work on grilling meat, when you have to check in at least once a day to start a new project, or that you have many kilos of potatoes in your inventory, or that you are even fed by someone else? But you can't start talking about login times in character, so you have to make up explanations that sound reasonable. And some people have trouble thinking in character.

2. Only a little cosmetic thing slipped in. The game looks much better without loads of unfinished corpses, and when every character you see is actually played by someone and not abbandoned. So in some point I might talk people over into cleaning the land from sleepers. This part also explains massacrists and suicidal newspawns.

3. Loneliness bad. If your character has friends and communication, you're more likely to check in to see what's happened, right?

4. When you have to search for food with lots of trouble, that'll keep you active, but if it gets too hard you just give up. In the middle of the wilds it's easy to count your supplies wrong and you'll run out of food on the road, or when you find a source, you're too weak to gather enough to keep yourself alive.

[Schme]

I'm guessing this post was made after you got an 'I don't know' response from my french character when you posed that question.

I'm more active than most Cantr players, and even I don't have the time to write up a religion upon demand. Give people time!

I'm afraid not. But I think if anyone can right a good religion for that place, it would be your character.

[Schme]

So give it a try. Explain existence.

[Nixit]

Ooh! Ooh! Can I try!