Primitive Tool Types

[The Industriallist]

History has shown that most things that can be made of metal can be imitated without it. It can be difficult to obtain iron or steel in some areas, and stone tools and weapons are used instead.

In Cantr, there is a strange floor on our technology level. The stone age hand axe and neolithic wood-and-stone weapons would be quite popular in some areas.

Also, the advanced South American civilizations were built on stone and volcanic glass (Obsidian), with obsidian knives, "swords" and assorted tools. Obviously these were greatly inferior to (and probably harder to make than) iron and steel tools, but where iron is scarce, rocks have always been a popular substitute.

[Meh]

If we had tool brakage rules it might fit in better.

And at the same time if we had tool building projects that could fail it would also help balance. "The project stone trowel failed reslting in all stone lost".

Having project have an "or" case when it comes to tools would be helpful too.

The specfic example I'm thinking of is a "stone scoop". This would be like a "stone shovel". Basically a flat rock that works a little better than bear hands. The goal of this shovel would be to build a "small fire pit". Maybe an alternate "small fire pit" with the same features that took no tools but longer to build would be balancing.

An all wooden trowel would help as well. Possible the wooden trowel could only build ovens, coal ovens etc and maybe those ovens would be less funtional. Building building with them would be right out.

And what about a stone building that can be built without a trowel. A fitted stone building? Twice as much stone and four times the amount of time to build as a normal stone building.

As a side note. Can there be a random chance that a metroite hits somewhere. They were the first source of iron before people discovered it was under the ground as well right? Without programming I can only see this as a manual event that shows the metroite to a few local locations from impact then an amont of iron would lay on the ground.

And yes the system is set up to encourage trade.
However doing things with primitive tools and alternate ways should just be very very hard to encourage trade but not impossible.

I'm suggesting this for places where iron is either so far away or requires sea travel. Civiliations should be able to grow albeit more slowly to be "discovered" by the civilizations of steel later.

[The Industriallist]

Think of the wonderful exploitation... I mean trade. Yes. Trade. Not exploitation.


Isn't the '"or" case' already implemented? Stone hammer works anywhere a normal hammer does, I think.

As a side note. Can there be a random chance that a metroite hits somewhere.

Or someone?

However doing things with primitive tools and alternate ways should just be very very hard to encourage trade but not impossible.

Yes, if it's configured right, no one should even consider using a stone version if they had any choice. (unless they are a really fanatical roleplayer)

[Nick]

Also, the advanced South American civilizations were built on stone and volcanic glass (Obsidian), with obsidian knives, "swords" and assorted tools. Obviously these were greatly inferior to (and probably harder to make than) iron and steel tools, but where iron is scarce, rocks have always been a popular substitute.

You would think so, but actually obsidian is harder and sharper than iron. (just more brittle, and easier to chip or break)

[Nick]

Also, the advanced South American civilizations were built on stone and volcanic glass (Obsidian), with obsidian knives, "swords" and assorted tools. Obviously these were greatly inferior to (and probably harder to make than) iron and steel tools, but where iron is scarce, rocks have always been a popular substitute.

You would think so, but actually obsidian is harder and sharper than iron. (just more brittle, and easier to chip or break)

[The Industriallist]

I would say that that makes it much inferior for most purposes.

Still, for weapons at least it would be better if they worked well, then broke. Or you could just say that you use them very carefully to avoid breakage.

The brittleness would make them take a lot longer to assemble also.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

Well, a macana was a weapon used by the Aztecs, basically a wooden sword-esque club with sharp obsidian blades about the edges, a good swat with one of those could quite easily decapitate a horse...had a bit of trouble against armor though..
Also you could make a decent sling with a bit of cloth, a skilled slinger could hurl rocks the size of grapefruits a considerable distance.

[The Sociologist]

This is potentially one of the better suggestions I've seen so far, but the problem is that it did not get taken up the right way.

However, the other thread about stone tools is quite wrong, notwithstanding its popularity. See...
More Stone Tools
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2626

Stone is simply too prevalent, since it has to be used for building, and permitting more stone tools will destabilize the simulation. Yes the economy is currently derelict and the simulation is failing, but this is not the solution.

What I would suggest is that a new material be added, namely obsidian, programmed to appear where other resources already are, so that it will be very easy to do. Obviously, the obsidian would be available in very very small quantities and somewhat more would be needed for the respective tools than in the case of iron.

Now surely one could program "add obsidian wherever stone is". Or perhaps that's risky, gold and stone being in the mountains? So "add obsidian wherever sand is"?

In addition, obsidian harvesting tools would function at a lower level of efficiency than iron ones, though I don't believe they need to break at this time.

Possibilities (based on anthropological information):

Obsidian axe.
Harvesting - all harvesting knives, forks and other diggers.
Carving - All implements used to work on ordinary stone and wood, eg chisel, carving knife, mallet.
All implements used in the preparation of hide, eg hide scrapers.
Basic knife.
Needle.
Maybe basics for some building such as trowel and adze.
Doubtless some other implements used in primitive construction that I haven't thought of.

Obsidian war axe (at reduced effectiveness of course).

Under NO circumstances a soldering iron, screwdriver, wrench or scissors(since this would mess up the tech levels).

Currently, as you know, the economy is derelict and the simulation is becoming a chat group for roleplayers. All good fun, but at a pre-Stone Age level they should be roleplaying australopithecines grunting and scratching themselves. One of my chars is in a carrot-farming region where a 30 year-old man claims never to have seen a dung-scraper. That is in my opinion ridiculous, so I would suggest that this is the most important single issue to address.

The other is "conspicuous consumption", relating to how dominance functions in human societies, with a bit of evolutionary psychology thrown in, and I'll be back with some thoughts on that.

[cantrlady]

Can't wait!

[The Industriallist]

Ooh. I recognize you. Do you perchance mean a dung-fork?

And for reference, that area isn't pre-stone age by any means. There are definitely problems with the economic system, but in that particular place it's partly a result of regulation by governments. From what I've heard there is much more iron available to non-government people on the K island and some other places.

Also, there are some big problems at the moment with cheap metal-substitutes. Any tool which is used in manufacturing has the same effectiveness no matter what version is used. That creates absurdities like the steel hammer.

Actually, I would say the economy is derelict due to an excess of valuable goods, not a shortage. Established powers don't need to produce anything once they reach a certain level. There are difficulties with disribution of wealth, but that's life, not simulation failure.

For a final point, nothing can be done about the RP underclass. If a character doesn't have the material ambition to leave their home and search for valueable goods, you can't (and shouldn't) very well force them to.

[The Sociologist]

Ooh. I recognize you. Do you perchance mean a dung-fork?.

Just perhaps I recognize you, then. Would you be likely to use words such as "derelict free market." Yes, a dung-fork.

Also, there are some big problems at the moment with cheap metal-substitutes. Any tool which is used in manufacturing has the same effectiveness no matter what version is used. That creates absurdities like the steel hammer.

On the whole I agree. That's why I wanted to limit the tools and make the obsidian very very slow to acquire. Perhaps my tool list could be pared down further, but the principal should remain.

Actually, I would say the economy is derelict due to an excess of valuable goods, not a shortage. Established powers don't need to produce anything once they reach a certain level. There are difficulties with disribution of wealth, but that's life, not simulation failure.

Accumulated excess is exactly what I hope to address in my conspicuous consumption thread, to be posted shortly. You can doubtless guess, but let's leave that till then.

For a final point, nothing can be done about the RP underclass. If a character doesn't have the material ambition to leave their home and search for valueable goods, you can't (and shouldn't) very well force them to.

I agree overall, of course, but dare not say more because of the CR. Dangerously close to what my char talks about to yours. Nonetheless, I remain convinced that a new tool element, introduced carefully in small quantities, is necessary.

[kroner]

Ooh. I recognize you.

let me guess: you've been advertizing as fervently at mit as you did at stuy.

[Appleide]

3 grams of that volcanic stuff a day, where ever mountains AND gold are.

The tools, average need 100-200 grams of the stuff. Hard enough?

[NetherSpawn]

3 grams of that volcanic stuff a day, where ever mountains AND gold are.

The tools, average need 100-200 grams of the stuff. Hard enough?

3g/day sounds reasonable to me, if you consider how hard it is to make iron. Also, this would give you a reason for SLAVE LABOR! Or employees. Either way.
Mountains and gold seems like a somewhat irrational requirement. I'd go with mountains and sand, because you need "volcanic" but you also need glass. That narrows the choices down a bit, but it gives people a reason to go to the mountains. In most of Cantr you just have to go to an "Iron Forest" to get the hematite you need, and mountains don't have much else.
Would there be a tool and/or machine to harvest obsidian?
Obsidian couldn't have a shield. That would be tough on it, but makes sense. With obsidian weapons and bone shields, you could have a Cantr war where damage is actually inflicted! (Damage is pretty light at most technology levels of combat if shields don't fail.)

[Spectrus_Wolfus]

the RD has in mind many primitive style tools and weapons t introduce to the game but at present if we added them everyone would just make them instead of the iron steel ones already in the game.as soon as we have weapon/tool degredation the number of available things will sky rocket to include more primitive ones because then they'll be more in balance cause they'll break faster then steel/iron ones will.the idea of a new type of stone but is a good one i'd like to see a few diferent types of stone instead of just basic stone.so you can have area's with granite that makes strong stone houses as opposed to area's with soap stone which would make weaker houses and the such.plus stone types like flint and shale for tool making and obsidion would fit into that categry aswell.there are so many possibilities but at present without going extreme and making them worthless to collect balance would be shot to peices