Reconsidering Healing foods

[Songthrush]

I propose to have a look at the current implementation of healing food.

Currently we do not have healing foods, we have insta-combat-buff-potion foods. A stockpile of these, is a sure deciding factor in any protracted battle. Yet is it realistic that one would be able to restore 99% of the character's health (something corresponding to grievous, crippling wounds) instantaneously by consuming a few kilograms of onion, and more, do so during the battle itself?

Of course, it is not. The question is how to deal with the issue. So, I would like to suggest something that would make the least amount of change to the current item use system, and keep healing foods important.

Let us make them healing foods proper: foods you eat while your character is recuperating and healing.

No healing foods can be eaten for 3 days after a character uses the combat skill. Each time you attack or are attacked, you now have to wait for 3 days before you can begin recuperating and consuming your healing foods.

This kind of change could throw the current combat balance off. Certainly, well established characters may begin to feel far less secure. But could it be a change for the better? Your thoughts are welcome.

[sanchez]

I think realism is quite out the window so shouldn't form the basis of any argument. I also think that there are not the resources in RD and especially in ProgD at this time to redo the combat system, though there has been no shortage of proposals.

[Songthrush]

If you've seen how the existing code is arrayed, do you reckon a change like this would be challenging implementation wise?

[sanchez]

Have your chars been victim of a pirate attack recently? Why the proposals to change naval warfare and combat?
I frankly like the current system, at least as it all fits together with the present limitations. Energy foods, once they're more widely used, should have a much greater effect in fights. Now that there's been widespread cross-zone contact I'm really hoping to see spice traders spur the creation of more apothecary mixtures, tea, etc.

[Songthrush]

No, but I do grow apathetic with the current system, which to be honest with you seems more and more to have the "idiot arcade" overtones, and does not in my opinion pay enough heed to the founding philosophy of slow paced, thoughtful gameplay. And so, I am on a holy crusade against manifestations of those aspects of Cantr which depend on weird, instantaneous things, standing out like mutated multiple sore thumbs against the background of that reasonable original philosophy.

I understand the lack of resources, and so, I am keeping all suggestions extremely simple.

Combat is taken very lightly by characters who have the option to insta-heal during battle, and rightfully so, they essentially have a second, and third, and twenty third life available to them, so long as they are awake to heal themselves regularly. This takes away from the real extatic excitement living through complicated battles, for all involved, I think.

It's a system that works, thus far, but is it the best we could do? And could there be small improvements to make that would not be complicated implementation-wise, but have the effect of re-injecting excitement into those aspects of the game? I'd like to see some discussions along these lines.

[DELGRAD]

Combat is taken very lightly

As it should be. Cantr is more of a role play game than anything else.
Why try to fiix a game that is not broke?
Focus more on the role play. Not a let's kill all slash-em-up game.

[Songthrush]

Are you advising me to forget that combat exists at all, DELGRAD? That does not seem right. Or is it something more subtle, and you're finding yourself in much doubt as to my personal roleplay abilities? Isn't that just a tad presumptuous?

If not, then let us see which scheme offers more possibility for exciting roleplay. Consider a scenario. A weak, moderately armed Cantr character faces a group of murderers.

Murderers: "Give up all you've got or we'll cut you up."
Charry: "Screw you. I am a fairy."
Murderers: "Kill him, Bill-bob."
Bill-bob does inordinate amounts of damage to the character with a claymore sword.
Murderer chorus: "Har. Har. Har."
Charry: "Pop! Pop! Woosh! Magic onions, make me right!"
Charry: "Nah, no problems. Just some idiots on the road, I am okay honey, will be home in time for tea!"

You get the idea. Is that the kind of roleplay you're into? Where is the simulation, where is the emergent, quirky but realisticly ordained world? Where are all these things?

And just think of what would be possible with some adjusted combat system ideas, simple to implement ones.

In the above situation the "fairy" should have been properly terrified. Being hurt with implements of war is not a light matter, fixable with a magic herb. It's treated as it should be, as a mortal danger to the character. The player is tense, thinking about what to say, or do.

At the moment everyone but the most dedicated roleplayers shrug off damage as something pretty inconsequential. And even those dedicated ones, I know it, are completely at a loss how to play, when somebody they've just "*utterly crippled with a vicious crossbow bolt through the stomach*", instantaneously becomes just fine again.

Wounded characters, fleeing in terror to hide and recover.
Lower-grade weapons becoming as feared as the higher grade ones, because it doesn't matter what hurts you, you know it's going to last, etc. etc.

It could be a more fatal, more satisfying world - one full of roleplay opportunities. Let's have a little bit less Disney, a little bit more genuine danger.

[Tiamo]

In terms of realism it might be a good idea to limit the total amount of healing food per day. Say a maximum of 200g/d is effective, any more consumed in a day has no effect.

BUT, keeping the balance between free action and the possibility of forcing other characters is absolutely crucial to Cantr.
Limiting healing options, almost the only defense characters have versus violence, could dramatically change the type of game Cantr is. It could well become a hack-and-slay-game and lose its unique society-building properties.
On the other hand, if defense would be made easier (using armor, easy hiding) Cantr could well turn into a solo-buildup-game (with cooperation options), also losing the society-building aspect.

Considering this, i think it is too dangerous changing key mechanisms in the game for realism reasons only. Especially since most of those mechanisms are rudely unrealistic anyway (hunting/battle, gathering, the tick system, healing, the lack of domestication and agriculture, etc.).
So i will NOT propose above suggestion.

[Songthrush]

Thank you for your input, Tiamo.

What do you think could be done in terms of reducing the amount of tacky "magicness" and improving the excitement of battles?

[shapukas]

Wait 3 days for a chans to heal? Its silly. Why? Just cos, battle isnt balanced. Attakers has so mush advandages, that in good timing, 5-8 chars can eliminate all town in one fast attack. Now, if my char is lucky he coud get a chance to survive the attack. And so i would like to heal instantly and have more time to defend.

P.S. If you want some exitement in battles then strengh of attaks should be redused and redused greately. But then again, what to do whith thiefs in that case?

[Tiamo]

What do you think could be done in terms of reducing the amount of tacky "magicness" and improving the excitement of battles?

I think players should approach the game mechanisms in a more abstract way, and forget about the lack of realism in each detail.
Battle is possible, more alert characters have better chances than sleepy ones, ganging up is a huge advantage in battle, the attacker has surprise advantage, characters with better equipment (including healing options) have an advantage. All realistic in an abstract way.

Maybe you should think of 'healing' not as magically undoing damage, but as a late parry (or armor), avoiding imminent damage. Imagine this, and the role-playing image of battle would greatly improve.
While nothing changes to the game mechanism...

[tiddy ogg]

I've long thought that healing food should logically be taken in small doses and take time to work, but the arguments above are persuasive, considering the combat system.
And I'm sure it is a lot of work in programming.
There are far more important things needing implementation without this extra nerfing proposal.

[SekoETC]

This is not the right way to deal with the problem. It would totally paralyze combat. What I'd suggest would be healing foods boosting your healing rate instead of granting instant healing, most damage being replaced by bleeding damage that increases within time so that you could apply first aid to stop the damage from increasing but that if you got wounded enough, you would be knocked out. And stuff like that. But it's a whole another suggestion.

[Doug R.]

I agree that combat the way it is now is not in keeping with a slow-paced game, but I also agree that your proposal is not the way to address it. What should be slowed is damage, not healing.

What I'd suggest would be that taking a hit only causes minor damage, but damage accumulates over time (by bleeding) until it can be stopped by some method. This would have great effect in battles such as the one in which Nick Blackrock was killed in under one second, because everyone on the enemy ship knew when his ship was going to dock. Using my method, he'd have taken perhaps 5 damage per hit, and then lost a certain amount of health per turn afterward. Only if damage was slowed, would slowed healing make any sense. As it is, fast damage requires fast healing, and I don't think there is any simple fix in the manner that you're trying to go for.

[Songthrush]

Excellent points, everyone. I'm still hopefull that somebody out there may come up with a simple-to-code genius solution to the problems we have. I think Tiamo's comment addresses the real core of it all. Even if we make an effort and view the current system as abstractly as possible, it still remains somehow unsatisfying, with too much gimmicky behaviour. Could there be a relatively simple change we could make to it, specifically to make combat exciting to think about - even if it's only on the abstact level?