Religion

[Nalaris]

Well then, HF, how did Christianity start?

Riddle me this.

And besides, I've already provided reasoning as to how Christ's records of execution could've been wiped out. And on top of that, don't swear at Christ. Don't swear at all. It's not nice.

[Antichrist_Online]

Scientology has a nice science fiction story behind it but as much logic and reason as someone literally believing lord of the rings. Then again you can say that about alot of religions, but they weren't deliberately made as a cult to extract money, which is an illegal cult in many countries but not in the USA where even The Family can be a religion (The Family was a christian cult that believed wifeswapping, prostitution (having sex with people to convert them in this case) and sex with children were all important steps on the path towards God).

[formerly known as hf]

I'll swear at who I like, how I like, whenever I like.

Well then, HF, how did Christianity start?

People made it up?

Do you believe Mohammed really existed, if so, do you believe that he really did receive the word of God?
If not, how did Islam start?

Do you believe that there is an Absolute power, understood in a variety of concepts, but in terms of personified creator, as Brahma, who created the universe (and, yes, I know that's a crass over-simplification)?
If not, how did the Vedic religion / Hinduism start?

Do you believe that, as Homer wrote, Ocean and Thetys were the parents of Zeus and all the other Gods, who created and ruled the world? Or as Hesiod wrote, that void (not a God as such) was at 'the begining' followed by Gaia, Tartarus, Eros (and now I have to look the rest up) Erebus, Pontus, Ourea, Chronos, Nyx, and then Aether? Then followed by the Titans, offspring of Gaia, including Uranus and Cronos (and others I can't remember), followed by the Olympians (Zeus and the others, the ones you've probably heard of)
If not, how did the ancient Greek religion start?

Do you believe that the Universe was created by the sneeze of a supreme being, in an event named the Great Green Arkleseizure? And we should all fear "The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief"?
If not, how did the Jatravartid's religion start?

[Nosajimiki]

Do you believe that, as Homer wrote, Ocean and Thetys were the parents of Zeus and all the other Gods, who created and ruled the world? Or as Hesiod wrote, that void (not a God as such) was at 'the begining' followed by Gaia, Tartarus, Eros (and now I have to look the rest up) Erebus, Pontus, Ourea, Chronos, Nyx, and then Aether? Then followed by the Titans, offspring of Gaia, including Uranus and Cronos (and others I can't remember), followed by the Olympians (Zeus and the others, the ones you've probably heard of)
If not, how did the ancient Greek religion start?

damn you beet me to it, though I would point out that the writings of men like Homer and Virgil were able to create and propogate a religion that became the universal standard in the Western World long before Christianity took over, on the same principle that they were devinely inspired (invocation of the muses). The Ancient Greeks would go to war over breaking of the hospitality code, so why not Christains martyr themselves over equally fabricated stories?

[Pie]

(becaus homers illiad was made 900 years after the occerance.)

(Muhamed wasn't myrterd, and he had something to get out of it)

(The greek religion was started with a long line of myths and legends wich then evolved to be what they are today.)


(Oh, and that is a really funny part of hitchikers guid to the galixy, and I might add that if it was real it was probably made the same way that the greek religion, or the roman religion(with pluto and mars and all them) or the zoroaistic religion. Myths and legends, or governmental funding.)

AND, I hate it when people acuse me of things that I think that they are doing. TRY. AND. LOOK. AT. IT. THROUGH. MY. PERSPECTIVE.



NOW, i will respond to west.

I have gone through it with my deciples. And there is no posibal way that they were lied to by jesus, becaus THEY. SAW. THE. MIRACLE. WITH. THERE. OUN. EYES. And the only other way to make it fake is that theyre eyes where rong. (and we know that that is a small posibility)

"There's such a thing as getting caught up in a cause" WELL WHY DID THEY GET COUGHT UP IN THERE OUN CAUSE!? THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING!!! WHY WOULD THEY GET CAUGHT UP IN THERE OUN CAUSE IF THEY KNEW IT WAS A LIE!?!?!?!?

AND, I have only had to pull on one straw. that was when I got confused with the 100A.D. or somewhat persicution(where they had a chance to recant) and the earlyer one. AND sometimes I have to pull on straws and go and actually SERCH for information. I mean, dangit that just defeats the caus of debaiting.

And no, I will NEVER say something is true, just becaus "it is".Becaus in acts it doeth say to try and test the religion(this one group of people did thus or something or whatnot) And... well, Thats what I'm doing aint I?

H.F.

I am sincearly suprised.

To boil it all down to that.

the reason I go in circles is becaus you for some reason cannot comprehend what I am saying. It's like, yall's have blocks for brains.

And HF, that statment, RIGHT THERE*points to the statement "Jesus never fucking existed.
The disciples are just figures of fiction.
There were no martyrs for Jesus. Jesus never rose from the grave because he was never born to die.
The Bible is just the product of Centuries of fictional flourishes, with a lot of adaptation for devious purposes of the Church instituions, on half-truth verbal histories, based, very loosely and innacurately on half-truth verbal histories"*

Just proves that it is not me who is grasping the straws. Cant you see it? you are being compleatly unreasonable, IF you were here for the whole debait.

Christianity... cannot be just a "product of centuries of fictional flourishes" Becaus cristianity was there at 68A.D. to be persicuted.

And H.F, If you are just going to state a statenment and not give any, even theoretical evidence proving it, than don't post here.

And now I think of the statenment in the bible (quoted aproximatly) "why whould you try to pick out the splinter in anothers eye when you have a log in your oun?"

[Zanthos]

Well this was a good conversation until some people started flinging mud. I'm out, this thread is now a waste of time.

[AoM]

Pie. HF's arguement, while irreverant, is reasonable. It is attacking your justification by comparing it to other religions/philosophies/stories that claim truth based on faith.

The New Testament was not written at the time of Christ. It came afterward. And so much of it has been lost in translation, re-interpreted, or just plain excluded from the product that you see today that even if it all was originally the word of God, it has been so processed through the lenses of generations of humanity that faith should not be based on its literal interpretations, and indeed even loosely based faith on it should be wary.

(The greek religion was started with a long line of myths and legends wich then evolved to be what they are today.)

Christianity was started along the lines of myths and legends (such as Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Parting of the Red Sea in the Exodus) and evolved into something that Jesus professed, which itself evolved into something people believe in today.

There, I've just discredited the Bible in the same fashion as you discredited Homer's Odyssey. You say that the greek religion evolved from myths and legends until they became what they were today. This is untrue. They were what they were back in the time that they supposedly came from. We know this by the artwork and carvings that have been discovered. Now were there really centaurs and harpies running around the Mediterranean? Or could people of that time just made stuff up?

(Muhamed wasn't myrterd, and he had something to get out of it)

Mohammed wasn't martyred, but then again, neither was Moses. Both are prophets, both claimed to speak with God, both were leaders of a pursecuted people. You cannot discredit one without discrediting the other, Pie. And if you discredit Moses, then you are discrediting Christianity. And if you only discredit Mohammed, and not Moses, then you are being hypocritical.

[formerly known as hf]

Stop banging on about martyrs.

Who was martyred, pie?
People who appear in the Bible?

Ok, so where else is there an indication of this Jesus guy and his martyred followers?

Just because Troy was a real place, and there was likely a real battle - does not mean there is a God Athena who get herself involved.

Just because someone wrote a book, does not mean that boarding schools for speccy boy wizards actually exist.


You keep banging on about martyrs, pie, but the only indication that there ever were any martyrs for Jesus are in a book... (And don;t start flinging those pseudo-scientific bible branishing websites at me pie - the 'sources' they keep citing are little more than conjectures based on non-contemporary ramblings)

Just 'cos it's in a book, don't make it true...

[Nalaris]

Do you believe Mohammed really existed, if so, do you believe that he really did receive the word of God?
If not, how did Islam start?

Touche. Muhammed, unlike Christs followers(including early christians which are recorded to have been burned alive by Nero) gained a lot from Islam. A lot of people have started religions to gain power. It's nothing new. And Muhammed never stopped trying to convert Mecca. When it didn't work, he converted by the sword.

Do you believe that there is an Absolute power, understood in a variety of concepts, but in terms of personified creator, as Brahma, who created the universe (and, yes, I know that's a crass over-simplification)?
If not, how did the Vedic religion / Hinduism start?

Every society has its myths. All have largely died out, except Judaism and its offshoots, which have (for religions) unnaturally long lifetimes.

Do you believe that, as Homer wrote, Ocean and Thetys were the parents of Zeus and all the other Gods, who created and ruled the world? Or as Hesiod wrote, that void (not a God as such) was at 'the begining' followed by Gaia, Tartarus, Eros (and now I have to look the rest up) Erebus, Pontus, Ourea, Chronos, Nyx, and then Aether? Then followed by the Titans, offspring of Gaia, including Uranus and Cronos (and others I can't remember), followed by the Olympians (Zeus and the others, the ones you've probably heard of)
If not, how did the ancient Greek religion start?

To prevent wars over religion, the Greeks added every myth they encountered to their own pantheon. The end result was amazing, interesting, but little more than a hobby and a hope.

Do you believe that the Universe was created by the sneeze of a supreme being, in an event named the Great Green Arkleseizure? And we should all fear "The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief"?
If not, how did the Jatravartid's religion start?

It was funny, so (insert name of author of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy here) threw it into his book. It's founding doesn't have to be realistic.

[deadboy]

Hhhhhooooookkkkkk I've got to but in here. This argument is barely even an argument any more. Can all of you Athiests, Christians, Muslims and all you other folk just agree to disagree? Basically, noone is going to prove -anything- because that's not what religion is about, there is no proof for religion...... AND before you Athiests start quoting me there is no proof that religion -doesn't exist- either. Now, without any edvidence, any solid proof, or even any unstable proof, people have nothing to base what they believe in on other than what they think sounds nice, for them, or what other people around them believe. Now, this -of course- means that noone is going to manage to persuade anyone otherwise because noone has any means to. So -please- let's just admit that anyone could be right, anyone could be wrong and wrap up this thread?

[Zanthos]

I believe that there could be a very indepth conversation about this topic, just apparently not with the people on this forum. I guess that's why im taking Religion and Philosophy this year in college (as an engineering major to boot)

[deadboy]

You know that Philosophy is actually one of the things that I am most interested in?

The problem is that it is -so- hard to find anyone who will actually discuss it interestingly, and yes, this forums discussion has just turned into a flame war, so is not really what I find interesting about it

[formerly known as hf]

I believe that there could be a very indepth conversation about this topic,

You're too late, we got past that stage once pie started hopping in circles bashing the same damned crap over and over again.

Every society has its myths. All have largely died out

Yeah. Including western Christian societies.

And you're much mistaken if you think Hindu myths have 'died out' - there's a fair few million people who would disagree... And it's pretty damned rude to those millions to say such a throw-away comment as that.

What makes the writings in the Bible any less Myth than the writings of Homer? The story of Ramayana? The writings of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha?

[deadboy]

*Must.... resist.... urge... to....flame....Hf's...stupid....comment.....so.....hard!*

*Breathes heavily*

[quote=HF]What makes the writings in the Bible any less Myth than the writings of Homer? The story of Ramayana? The writings of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha?[/quote]

Thisissuchastupidthingtosay! *Tries to hold it in*

The bible is written about a religion that is still major, that is why, you cannot have a myth if people believe it is true, that is what a myth is.... and no, Budda's writings are not myth, because people still believe them too, but homer is.... because it is a dead religion. Eventually christianity may become myth like every other religion. If you want proof just look at paganism, that became myths about faeries and goblins, or greek religion, which became greek myths, it is just so obvious it is stupid to ask it

Oh and I don't know who Ramayana is so don't ask me.

Sorry I couldn't help myself. But I just -hate- to let silly comments pass

[deadboy]

Very... very quickly changing the subject so that noone uses what I just said as fuel to this large flame war called "Religion", just out of curiosity, what do muslims believe about the after-life? Because in philosophy, which I already said interests me, there are two things that interest me the most, the afterlife and my many theories on it, and creation, which just frankly baffles me