Religion

[Pie]

Ah, but they were myrterd, and thus they weren't out right Lying.


And Zanthos, the bible has 5000 coloberating texts of the gosple written in greece. These are all historical texts, dating to the early church. and I wouldn't think that the catholic church could have gotten to them if we couldn't even find them and had to dig them up.

Also, Conserning relics, Who cares? I don't care if it really is the holy grail, or the scull of someone. WHY IN THE WORLD do I have to believe in these trinkets, when I can believe in the person who created them? What power do they have that unsurps, or surpases the lord of lords, the holy of holy's, the god that created the univers?

And were in the bible does it even come close to telling me that these trinkets have power?


Oh, and also, the ghosples were written before 70A.D. becaus they left out sertain events that would have been put in there to prove that jesus actually was the son of god(becaus he predicted it)

[Nosajimiki]

If you've ever read Dante's Devine Comidy then you would know that it is a common litterary device of writters who seeking to validate thier points use devine prophesy to write about contemporary events in a historical setting. IE: if the they were written in 70ad describing phropheses that would be fulfilled in 70ad, what is the more likely senerio, that they were written prior to 70ad through devine inspiration, or they were written around 70ad with prophesies thrown in to make thier stories more believeable. When The Devine Comidy was first written there were a number of readers who actuallly believed he went to Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven because he wrote the book 15 years after the setting took place and included a few "prophecies" so when they read it they would be all like OMG! that actually happened he must be legit... If they had to exist before 70ad to validate Jesus as the son of God, then in accordance with Occums Razor, Jesus is not validly the son of God

[Pie]

But they were myrterd. They cant out right lie.

[Antichrist_Online]

Martyrdom DOES NOT EQUAL TELLING THE TRUTH!!!!! Damn. I'm back here again. Kudos to Nosajimiki about the Hel thing.

[Zanthos]

The bible should never be taken literally. Yes, it is the compiled teachings of the catholic church, but as in all things there is a bias. The writers of the gosples wanted jesus to be divine, so they might have written things in a way to make him so.

Don't get me wrong, I am and will always be a loyal catholic, but I am not taking everything at face value, but rather as stories to teach the ideas jesus died defending.

[Pie]

antichrist, again i will tell you.

if you had the chois to just, you know, bow down and worship the emperor, and thus be scot free frome any torment and death,would you refuse to do so becaus you becaus you believe you saw jesus rise frome the dead?

If you where to come to an inpass were you could just tell someone what they wanted to hear, be it truth or not, to excape crisifiction, would you coninue to tell the same lie that he dosen't want to hear?

If someone was pointing a gun to your head, and he wanted you to tell him the truth(as he alredy knows what the truth is, he just wants you to say it), would you lie?

[Diego]

Pie, not everyone values life as highly as you assume they do. Your hypothesis is fundamentally flawed from a logical point of view.

[Pie]

so, you're saying if i suddenly popped out at your door, had a shotgun, it was loaded, and I looked really pissed, and I pointed it at you, and i told you to take back some bad phrase or name you have called me, you would refuse to do that and thus have your brains blown out?

[Diego]

We are not talking about what I would do here, Pie. We are talking about what martyrs value. And they quite clearly valued their life less.

[Pie]

Becaus they believe in what they are dieing fore. That they are not out right lying. They may not be telling the truth, but they are not out right lying.

And actually, we are talking about what a normal rational human being would do. And you... seem to be a rational human being.. so yea.

[pur]

I've read that last few pages, and the first, i'd guess the dicussion isn't far away from what it started with.

Just some remarks: martyrs value their after life / eternal life more then this mortal short period life on earth. I find that somewhat logical.

The crufication stuff , about that it isn't lethal. Afaik, Jezus was whiped first 50 times or so. Then he had to walk his own cross to the mountain. And crufication is done with nails to the wrist not the hands. Also there is a plank attached where he can stand on. It certainly is lethal and a cruwel way to die too.
And it's not a dead punsiment that was invented right then, it was done many times before already.

[Pie]

very well put pur. *me still thinks that pur is somewat cat-ish, but refrains frome any scratching behind the ears*

And just to tell you, the only way for someone to respect they're afterlives more than theyr lives, is for them to believe totally in one religion or way to get into the afterlife.

[deadboy]

OH GOD NO WHO RESTARTED THIS THREAD!?

Honestly whoever it was own up so that you may be hunted down and shot by a group of very -very- angry forum readers!

EDIT: Oh wait turns out that there isn't a problem. This thread never actually ended, I just stopped paying attention to it because it was slowly killing my brain. Hehe, sorry. But seriously, 55 PAGES IS ENOUGH PEOPLE!

[AoM]

I cannot respect or disrespect something that I cannot know. The afterlife is a mystery, and it's a scary one at that.

Anyone who has seriously contemplated death knows how powerful and chilling the thought can be. That no matter what, one day, you will cease to be. You can tell yourself things - believe in things - that make the thought of passing on easier. It would be nice to have an eternal soul, something that is truly you, existing for eternity. And it would be nice if that soul was able to reach a place of rest that made it happy, and that it could be reunited with other souls that it knew on earth. It really is a nice thought. And it really takes the scare out of death. But in the end, it is just a story that you're telling yourself.

The choice of not telling yourself this story, or other versions of it, is a more logical step, if not a comforting one. The thought that there is nothing waiting for us at the end of the tunnel is horrifying. So horrifying that it's understandable that people would vehemently cling to the stories of God and heaven.

Religious martyrs, no matter who we're talking about, even the big J, are not logical people. Logic is an earthly way of thinking. Faith is by definition something that excludes logical reasoning; you just have it. They believed in something that rightfully they had no way of knowing to be true. They valued the promise of a safe afterlife over the oppression they faced in life. Even if they are proved right in the afterlife, they were delusional while on Earth, as rational human beings will do what they need to survive. (Choosing to die nobly with honor as opposed to living with none is also placing more value on an abstract concept than one does on their life.)

[formerly known as hf]

People will give their lives for all sorts of promises.

Not all promises are kept.

The better the promise, the more likely people are to risk it.

An eternity with a bunch of ready-for-it virgins, anyone?