Inappropriate Rape?

[Jetlag]

As far as kids, and possible exposure to someone RPing rape/sex, is concerned - the responsibility lies solely with the parents/carers, not with Jos or anyone playing Cantr.

Yes and no. I understand exactly what you're saying, and to a large extent I agree. However, that doesn't mean we, as players, shouldn't be a little bit careful to take things like that into consideration. I don't see that it would be in any way detrimental to Cantr for all players to just bear in mind that the people they may be playing with may be young or sensitive to certain issues, and to give other players ample opportunity to avoid roleplay that they would find distasteful.

[mortaine]

Actually, the responsibility lies with those RPing sex, or worse, rape, with those who are underage, which would be certain players.

I obviously agree with West in the "not in my Cantr" viewpoint, and not to protect children, but to protect myself. This is an area in which I am personally emotionally vulnerable, and I choose most of the time to avoid circumstances in which it would be an issue. Reporting and banning someone who RP'ed raping one of my characters would not go far enough, as the player would have actually caused me more than a small amount of emotional distress.

Some examples of responses I have been known to have to triggers:

Panic attacks, complete with inability to breathe and full-on "Flight" instinct
Avoidance of tasks that are normally mundane to me
Irrational fear of windows, doors, walking from my car to my house
Associative fears and paranoia: believing that specific people have conspired against me
Unrelenting nightmares (what other people consider nightmares are just disturbing dreams to me-- I get what would best be described as terrors when I'm in a bad phase of PTSD)
Unexplainable rage, usually misdirected towards others
Physical illness, from the flu to actual stomachache and nausea
Unexplained crying

I am lucky, in that my PTSD doesn't result in me harming myself or others, but I am also a remarkably well-adjusted rape survivor. Others turn inward and indulge in self-harming, eating disorders, addictions, etc., or outward and lash out at others.

And whether or not it's a game, we have emotional responses to our characters and some identification with them, or at least some of them. Responsibility or no, does anyone really want events on Cantr to trigger someone to cut themselves or spiral into an eating disorder cycle that they otherwise would have avoided?

[kinvoya]

I haven't advocated banning sex or even rape rp (although, if it were possible I would ban rape in Cantr). I think Cantr sex can a fun part of Cantr for a lot of people and is an important part of bonding for many couples.

I don't like it when players make a lot of their chars very sexually focused and explicit, however. It's just kind of gross to be around (just like in rl). I also don't like the "isn't it so much fun to be a prostitute" genre of chars that spring up all over because that's just not the reality of prostitution. To cope, I've decided that Cantr whores are a different reality from rl prostitutes with all their rl horror stories.

These are just my own personal opinions, however. I express them in the hopes that they might have some little influence on people.

[Nixit]

Usually you can tell someone is underaged by the way they write. But if they give reason to believe they're interested then I wouldn't start telling anyone "OOC: Sorry but you rp too childish to me". I don't think that's a thing anyone would like to hear. There are many people out there in Cantr, if you want to have sex with someone then you're likely to select someone who shows they can rp. Or when it comes to raping a random bypasser, or anybody, don't just stick it in them, grab them and grope them just to make clear what's on your mind, no reason to use obscene words, and give them a chance to reply. If they don't do anything it's not worth it. Just kill 'em. Same thing if they attack you, nevermind if you'd rp'd taking hold of their wrists. But if they rp trying to break free, or struggling helplessly, that's a go-go.

Not I!

[formerly known as hf]

I'm not trying to be un-empathetic, and I (withouth wanting to use the patronising and deminiishing phrase 'understand') acknowledge the real distress it can cause, but I still say that it is somewhat pointless, and asking to much to rely on Jos, the PD, or any other website organiser that is not on a scale such as Yahoo or AOL or whatnot to actively monitor and censor any person to person (or charater to character) exchanges on the internet.

I don't see how it would be feasible to pre-emptively ban or dis allow any horrible RP in Cantr of any kind? Except a real-time word filter system (what words would you filter to ban rape?) or some kind of explicit agreement not to RP rape in Cantr, or account is deleted - but that still doesn't stop the event from occuring in the first place.

I have never RPd rape, or sex, of any kind in Cantr, and have avoided it, simply because that's not what I want from Cantr (and as far as the possibility of RPing sex with someone underage - well, I guess, if you choose to RP sex in Cantr, you are choosing to run that risk, and to get by it by assuming that underaged kids would not RP sex, or wouldn't RP it very well and be noticeable, or whatever reasoning is used to make the risk legitimate, is naive and fallacious). And I'd tend to think that anyone claiming to have RPd rape for legitimate reasons is somewhat immature, and certainly insensitive. Regardless of the fact that I know I and my charries can ignore it, it still is not pleasant.

So, yes, I don't think rape, 'inappropriate' or not (appropriate rape?...) has any place in Cantr - but that is my personal view, and I acknowledge that other players may RP this, and be ok with that, which I also respect. But, more importantly it seems, I do not think it is something that could be banned, in the sense of pre-empting any occurences, or at-the moment filtering, and neither do I think there should be any call for a ban like this.

As for sex in Cantr - sex and roleplay have always gone hand in hand, even back in the days of dungeons and dragions and scantily clad elevn ladies... (even though that was more implicit than explicit) and I don't think there's any problem with that, and I don;t mind newspawns running around being obsessed with 'relationships' and the whatnot that goes with it - we were all adolescents once, and the more I play, the more I think 'a man in his twenties' should be 'a man somewhere between the ages of 14 and 18'

[kinvoya]

I'm not sure who you're arguing with HF. Has anyone actually called for a ban or a watchgroup or whatever? It seems to me that most people are just saying they don't like rape in Cantr and wish it wouldn't happen.

Also, Mortaine, thanks for speaking up about your experiences. I think a lot of people are very ignorant about the reality of sexual crimes committed against children and adults. You're perspective makes it very clear that this is not a fun little rp experience at all.

I've never been raped but, like most women, I've been in some very scary situations that I know I was lucky to escape from. Having been in three potential rape scenearios in Cantr now, I can say that they totally freaked me out and gave me emotional flashbacks to those rl experiences.

[mortaine]

Thanks, Kinvoya. I posted that list because I think people don't necessarily realize that there are actual human beings with their own baggage on the other side of the computer screen, and that such baggage isn't always "just" baggage, but can mean a whole lot more than just "bad day in the Cantr."

I tend to agree that there's no real pre-emptive solution, although lack of anonymity of the players would be a start-- not one I'm advocating, mind you (I can, unfortunately, be very hypocritical in my views when it comes to this specific crime; I'm not objective and I can't pretend to be).

But banning would be a good start. Actually, if someone were seriously doing this in Cantr and there were a complaint about it (that's the key here-- it would be complaint-based, the way CR breaches are handled now), I wouldn't be adverse to Cantr staff sending a polite note to their ISP, as many ISPs have rules against such behavior (they don't care if you watch porn, but they care a lot if you role-play illegal sex acts, like sex with minors or rape, since allowing such can get *them* in trouble).

That might seem heavy-handed, but I think there have to be real-world consequences or it won't stop (the kind of mentality that thinks rape is fun is the same kind of mentality that doesn't believe in consequences), and the victim or reporter needs to know what happened to the situation so they can have closure.

[kinvoya]

I reported a player to PD via email for some offensive behavior once and never received any kind of acknowledgement that they had even received the email. Communication with the staff of Cantr is not always satisfying, to put it mildly. *shrugs*

[Black Canyon]

I feel very strongly against a blanket banning of any particular type of content except for CRB's. I feel inappropriate behavior by players should be addressed on a case by case basis after having been brought to the attention of the players department.

I'm really not convinced that there is a wave of Rape role-play being forced upon unwilling players in Cantr. I get the impression that the reported incidents were the work of a few... if not one, player in particular. To create oppressive policies and rules based on a few isolated incidents seems reactive and does not make sense to me.

[SekoETC]

Sometimes I wonder myself. Would anyone without the least bit of interest to domination and/or sexual violence/humiliation rp a rapist just to prove they can, or because others are doing it, or because the situation around the character feels somehow compulsive to such actions? So I must be a freak, even if letting a character bloom into a sexually offending villain took years.

Jonas was a quite shy and sympathetic. Though there were bouts of agression, I doubt that anyone could have expected him to snap like that. No one knew of the disturbed feelings he was hiding inside. Could just anyone become a rapist?

I once read a book, I don't know the English title for it, but there a woman was planning revenge on a man who had raped her. She would rape him back. She planned it very carefully and managed to tie him up by threatening him with a realistic-looking gun replica. I don't remember if she ever got actual fear of sexual humiliation out of him, only the fear of being shot. But she got him to get an erection and had sex with him against his will. After this she called the police to give herself in. But they couldn't understand such action could happen. So she had to call again and hold back the fact that the victim was a rape. And when the police arrived, they didn't accuse her of rape but a prank call! And the book ends with the woman's son coming home, telling her that he didn't mean to... but apparently his girlfriend hadn't been so willing he had thought. So this young man was now accused of rape and he hadn't seen it as such.

Seems like it could be just anybody. The most gentle creatures are so easily scarred inside.

Could we just ban all threat of hurting people mentally from Cantr? There is verbal assault that is making me think about my school years, making me feel helpless and in pain but I cannot actually respond to it because it wouldn't be natural for the character to talk back or show hostility. Many times I run into oppressive situations that make me feel down. But you can't expect PD to take away every scene you don't like. Still people are often reporting a CR breach "just in case" every time their character gets imprisoned without an obvious legal reason. We have a built-in sense of justice and would like things to be fair.
Still there are many people playing pirates and killers. Maybe they wouldn't go out there killing people, it's not comparable to raping. I doubt that all people rp'ing rape scenes, or even a major proportion of them, would make them true in nature. In the other hand there are people who would never reveal to have thoughts of rape and still would do it, all out of the blue. Especially those who abuse children. It's usually the silent ones, they say.

My mind is drifting. I should figure out what I'm trying to say here. I guess the starting point was just wondering does me having uncommon fantasies make me a freak. Am I in danger of creeping up on some boy or girl in real life and breaking their bodily integrity? Today I started thinking, what if I went in the corridor and another student was there, it could be just anyone of them, (or the teacher perhaps), they would not notice me. I would just grab her from behind, would she recognize me somehow? Would I be strong enough to keep her from breaking free? Would she scream? Could she feel aroused? Would I get caught? What would they think then? Could I be accused of sexual violence, even an attempt of rape?

All people have fantasies. It's quite natural. But people usually can set themselves into the position of others and imagine what they would feel like, and knowing that something would be most likely to cause distress to the victim and thus sane people stay away from making their fantasies true in real life. And in a web roleplaying game, first of all you can keep yourself out of it by working through a character, it's not you trying to offend a person, but a character controlled by you offending another character. With all emotionally taxing rp it's good to debrief afterwards. I'm ready to do it every time. That's why it's good to know who's playing on the other side, and to be able to contact them on the forums. If things are not solved, they may stay to bother you for ages. I have hated or feared players for the actions of their characters, unjustly, for a long time before finally getting over things and realizing it was just playing, not personal offense. But when you play anonymously it's hard to get the ooc contact.

I think Cantr is a safer environment for processing hurtful things than some chatroom, because in a chatroom anyone can just close the window and be gone forever without a trace. In Cantr the character stays there and cannot be quickly killed unless the player deletes the account, after which it would be slow and hard to get back. While the character is alive (and after death too?) the PD can track down the player, so anyone will be responsible for the actions of his or her character. Also, you learn about the consiquences in character. If rape is not ignored just because it was done in rp and not in a thing that would have programmed in effects, the character and throught this, maybe also the player can see the pain that he's caused.

Edit: But yes, I am against those people who come to Cantr just to make their sex fantasies true, that is not the purpose of the game and no one can live by just performing sexual activities, they still need to farm their potatoes and so on. Even if rape means putting the victim in a lower position, stealing their freedom of choice, it should not be an offense against the player, only the character. The player should still be given a chance to respond, and the offender should not proceed too quickly to force things that could have been fought against.

[west]

A thought:

Cantr rape falls into two categories: That which is one-sided in the sense that one person "rapes" someone against the player's will, which is very bad RP, and that which is consensual between players but rape between characters. That is creepy and unnecessary...why would you submit your character or other peoples' characters to such trauma?

Rape has no place in cantr. There's too much of it in real life.

Violence is one thing, sex is a totally different thing. *you hurt a man in his twenties with a sabre* is nonspecific and nonexplicit.

You all know the difference between that hardcoded generality and the things some people will say when RPing. Disgusting.

Ugh. I'm with mortaine here.

[Nick]

I'm not willing to risk the game of Cantr for something so stupid as cantr sex. Or even less, cantr rape.
Does this topic really need to keep going?
And Seko, or a mod, whoever sees first, please edit out the swears.

[SekoETC]

Was I swearing?

[Nixit]

I think it's disturbing that people even think about this in a game. I can't really explain it... it's just disturbing.

There's your young person input.

[formerly known as hf]

I don't know - I'd tend to agree that any fantasies - of any kind, are better aired in some kind of role acting, between consenting adults, fully aware of what they're doing. Whether that reduces or increases the chances of future actual inacment is highly debateable, and probably unanswerable.

It possible to assume, that if sex is possible between Cantrians, rape must be. But, just as if someone RPd graphic and brutal killing sprees or offensive sexual activities publicly in Cantr - that'd be wrong and unacceptable. If, however, a character wishes to RP that they have been a victim of a rape. I'd probably, albeit apprehensivly, RP along with it. Many might not, and it's personal choice how you RP, and what you choose not to RP

If we say that someone may not RP being a rape victim or rapist, should we not also say that someone should not RP being a mass/serial killer? That someone may not RP being a victim of a brutal physical assault? How about starvation, we've all seen pictures of starving people - enforced starvation, the actual thought of real life occurence of enforced starvation is similarly distressing? Should be ban locking characters up so that they starve?

We can't start censorship of one brutal act and not censor others. But any overt, brutal, disgusting, and more importantly, deeply insensitive and damaging acts should not be tolerated, and, as far as I've seen, are not.