Curfews

[Schme]

I was never truly subjected to an official curfew. If my mother or father told me to come home, most of the time, I would, because I respected them.

However, where I grew up, all of the kids were always out at night. In my neighborhood, there was very little drinking or drug use, but all of the guys would be out, often causing havoc, fighting, mugging people and dealing every manner of contraband.

The “fights” were particularly bad. Where I lived, there was a great deal of money to be had. Weed, crack, hash and whatnot had (and still do have) a big market. Naturally, people fought to control that market.

These were not drunken brawls. These were young, status seeking, aggressive young men fighting over the control of the market which fed their families. With so much at stake, not only in money, but in reputation, which can not only bring you respect, women and power, but also safety, with this much on the line, everyone would go all out. The knives, the bats and handguns would be broken out, and heavily utilized.

Could a curfew have stopped this?

No.

The market would still be there. The money would still be there to be had. People would still need to support their families. People would still want respect, money and power.

If you really needed to do someone in, and you couldn’t do it at night, you’d do it during the day. In fact, it happens all the time. Banging is fulltime.

Further, an effective curfew could only be enforced by the armed forces. Unless you have martial law, you don’t have a working curfew.


Not that the police would not stop and beatdown on people, not that they wouldn’t attack kids and leave them within an inch of their life if they found them alone, but it was hardly a curfew. You just had to gang up, and the problem was solved.



As for you West, here’s a thing you should know. Black Americans are a great deal more likely than a white American kid to be criminal. It’s much the same with pretty well every other minority group.

There are reason’s for that. When your neighborhood is full of drug addicts and drug dealers, when your school is full of people uninterested in study, when your father works at the paste factory bringing home 6.95$ an hour, barely making enough money to support his family, where you quite obviously have no better future than he, and what’s more, all of the white guys have it twice as good as you, and all of the people who run the place are white, and the guys who tell you what to do, the guys who you can work for, the guys who police your community, are white, and live on the outskirts of the city in nice houses far away from anything bad, when you live that, you’ll know.

What has the average young black kid to lose? His glorious future of loading trucks for minimum wage?

And then you see a these black men, then gang bangers and drug dealers, the robbers and the extortionists, you see them with nice cars and nice women, living easy, with enough money for their families, with enough money to live reasonably decent lifestyle, with a bit of extra to have a few beers or joints once in a while without going hungry (and it does happen), and what’s more, are respected, feared, have power and influence, and who fight back against the system, who are legendary and glorious.

The police have never done anything for you. They don’t stop the drugs or the prostituition. They put handfuls of people in jail to rot in he/llpits of fighting, rape, hunger and slavery once in a while, sure. But that doesn’t make a damn bit of difference. All their doing is putting the only successful black (or Mexican or Arab or Chinese or Turkish or Indian) people you know. A guy makes something for himself out of nothing, and gets locked up for it.

They beat you up when your walking home, they harass you. At any given time a car with a couple of uniformed gun totting white man can pull up to you and your friends, tell you to get to the ground and then put their knee right on your neck, or beat the sh.it out of you, or shoot you in the head, whenever they feel, and nobody will say sh.it about it. Who will believe a police officer over a “Criminal”? And do you know who investigates police officer misconduct? Police officers. Not detectives. Police officers. Their friends. Who’s going to squeal on their friends, especially about something that you do anyway? Nobody has the slightest wish to bring their friends to justice, and if they did, nobody would want to work with them, their job would be hell and chances are you get a Molotov cocktail through your window. And the police want your respect, after all that. Bow down to the white man’s sociopathic shock troops.

Sure, there’s poor white people. But they rarely get harassed by police, and when they do, they bring it upon themselves through crime. There’s tons of white criminals in Canada and America, moreso than black criminals. But they’ve got it better.

The white guys have so much and you’ve got nothing. Will you feel bad if you take a few televisions? Will you feel bad if you take a few dollars from a guy off the street? H.ell no.

The only way to get ahead is to be big in crime. That’s where it all is.

There’s so much to gain and so very, very little to lose.

Can you blame people? Perhaps. It depends on the case.

But here’s what I do say. What the fuc.k do you expect?


And let me tell you, you won’t solve a damn thing by locking people up.

Some people do need to be locked up. But the way things are now, the prison system only aggravates the problems.



And Seko, it’s the same fuc,king deal over in your end of the world, only twelve times worse.

The United States and Canada are pretty bad as problems caused by ghettoization and rascism go, but Western Europe and every single nation in it is much worse.

I’ll bet you anything Europe will burn.

[west]

Oh, I know, Schme. And I agree completely. I was just pointing out the dilemma. Especially as a lower-middle-class white boy at a mostly rich and white school.

[Nalaris]

Impressive, Schme. It's true that the justice system is broken, but that doesn't make the people who 'succeed' by shattering other people's lives in the right anymore than the cops who get their sick kicks out of dealing 'justice' to random minority groups. Of course it's predictable, but it's still not right, and neither is the 'justice' system you describe(I don't see anything like that where I live, probably because I don't live in a big city), but both have to be stopped, not just the one that favors white people.

In every corner of the world no matter how black and how evil, everyone must try to bring justice and mercy to every corner they're capable of reaching. If everyone did this, a lot of world problems would end.

This is probably a good time for me to bail out and never post in this thread again.

[Schme]

Oh, I know, Schme. And I agree completely. I was just pointing out the dilemma. Especially as a lower-middle-class white boy at a mostly rich and white school.

I wasn’t trying to single you out, West. It’s just you brought it up, you know? Somebody was going to. It just happens it was you who did. But really I was talking to everyone.

Impressive, Schme. It's true that the justice system is broken, but that doesn't make the people who 'succeed' by shattering other people's lives in the right anymore than the cops who get their sick kicks out of dealing 'justice' to random minority groups.

I did not say it was right. But wheather it is or not doesn't matter. What matters is that it will continue unless some major change takes place.

Of course it's predictable, but it's still not right, and neither is the 'justice' system you describe but both have to be stopped, not just the one that favors white people.

If the one was stopped, so would the other be.

It's not just the justice system. It's the whole society. Their would have to be major societal change.

As it is now, young black men are for the most part very poor and therefore (like most young poor men), criminally inclined. The police see this (as the black criminals can be distinguished from the whites, and are all in the same places due to ghettoization) and so target the criminally inclined young black men, some of them criminals, some of them not. This angers the black youths against the police and the system they serve, and so it makes them even more criminally inclined, causes them to commit more crimes out of anger (and of course, desperation) and so makes the police target them more. It's a vicious cycle.

However, police work for the controllers of society, who are white people moreso than black. There are dirt poor white people too, yes, there are more of them than poor blacks (in America), but therefore, they have more sway. And a greater number of blacks are poor than whites in the country comparativly (percentagewise.).

And the controllers of society don't want to see anybody causing trouble, whoever they may be, and if some of the people causing trouble are black, the attitude is have at them.

The isolation makes blacks withdraw into their own groups, as there is no acceptance for them elsewhere. Yes, some black people work very hard and penetrate white society with money and whatnot, but it doesn't happen much, because as you said, black people in the society (of Canada and America, that is) don't have that much opportunity. (Neither do poor white people, but they are not ghettoized as the people who have more money than them are of the same race.)

This is a large part of where ethnic gangs and nationalist groups come from.

It's the same situation with pretty much every minority group in America and Canada, and most of Europe, too. In Canada, it's less so blacks people than in America as it is others, but they have it equally bad as all the other minority groups up here. The same situation happens worldwide. In Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, it's people of Turkish descent, in America, it's Hispanics, blacks and Natives, in Canada, it's the First Nations, blacks, Indians, Chinese, Pakistanis, Jamaicans, Black Africans (as in people recently immigrated from parts of Africa to Canada, as opposed to black Canadians who have been established in Canada for generations), Vietnamese, Arabs, Portuguese and whatnot, in England it's Jamaicans, Pakistanis, Indians, well, pretty much the same as Canada, actually, but in all of the cases it's the same deal.

(I don't see anything like that where I live, probably because I don't live in a big city)

Well, I don't know. I've been to tons of small towns and reserves that are ten times tougher than the urban centers. Stuff happens in small towns too. It's probably just that you have a good community.

But that's the thing. You say you don't see stuff like that in your town. Maybe it does happen. But then again, maybe the reason you don't see it is because it doesn't happen. If your town can do it, it can be done. It's just not being done most of the time.

In every corner of the world no matter how black and how evil, everyone must try to bring justice and mercy to every corner they're capable of reaching. If everyone did this, a lot of world problems would end.

True enough. I'm not gonna hold my breath, though.

This is probably a good time for me to bail out and never post in this thread again.

Got stuff to do, eh?

[Joshuamonkey]

Hey! It's like Gotham! Where's Batman when you need him?

[Schme]

What are you mean?

[Joshuamonkey]

What are you mean?

Some people will know what I'm talking about, and some won't.

[Nalaris]

We could use some super heroes...or even just a vigilante who isn't out for revenge or some other personal agenda. Well, actually, I've never seen a crime in my life, so if someone like that popped up in my area they'd have plenty of time to spruce up the batcave...but that's besides the point.

I personally have known a few black guys. They didn't seem particularly downtrodden. Often where I live being black automatically makes you one little niche cooler than everyone else. I've heard reports of what you say in hispanics, though, however I've never witnessed any myself. At a local high school there are apparently a lot of hispanic groups who generally remain totally seperated from the rest of society. They speak spanish and are often total jerks to any white guy who approaches them. Most whites are total jerks to them. I don't know who started it. I've only ever seen one group like this, and they didn't seem criminal. They did make me want to learn fluent spanish so I could drop spanish comments on them and shatter their hispanic elitist dream, though. It's always annoyed me when people seperate themselves from society, yet I often do it myself. That's why I don't often voice those particular opinions.

I'm ranting, aren't I?

[Nixit]

No, it was more like a self-reflecting written out thought.

[Schme]

We could use some super heroes...

A self policed community can be wonderful or disasterous. I've seen both. It has to be done right.

I personally have known a few black guys. They didn't seem particularly downtrodden. Often where I live being black automatically makes you one little niche cooler than everyone else.

As I said, and as you should know, some American blacks do break out of the poverty cycle, and many of those go into white American culture. It can be done with a lot of hard work and a bit of luck. But most cannot.

As for them "Being cooler", well, I've seen that crap. The black kid being cooler because all of the sellout black pop rappers. Now, don't get me started on the sellouts. It's much more complicated than that. But anyways, I see it. White kids wanting to be friends with black kids, any black kids, so that they can try to pull an Eminem, to be all in with the black American culture, to be one of the people, to be a criminal or a gang banger or whatever the fu.ck else.

The thing is, those kids only want to glamourous, fun cool parts of black culture which bubble to the surface. They want to be criminels and outlaws, be all cool rappers, be with the poor, same as middle class communists. It's all a bunch of crap. They haven't a damn clue what they're thinking of. They only want to cool stuff. They'd run for cover if ever faced with the real life. Being poor isn't much fun. Gang Banging isn't all glamour, money, women and glory. It's no fun to get beat up by the cops for no reason. It's no fun to live separate from the rest of the country through no fault of you're own. It's not real, what the middle class white kids want.

They're middle class black friends are the same as them. And good for them. Once they're middle class, they've got a very good chance of staying out of trouble, staying middle class and letting their kids be middle class. What most black people want is just to be given that chance. But if you don't have that chance, well, fuc.k it then. Screw society. Take what you can and burn the rest.

I've heard reports of what you say in hispanics, though, however I've never witnessed any myself. At a local high school there are apparently a lot of hispanic groups who generally remain totally seperated from the rest of society. They speak spanish and are often total jerks to any white guy who approaches them. Most whites are total jerks to them. I don't know who started it....

You've heard reports, have you? Well then.

No shi.t they don't go with the white guys. The white guys don't want to have anything to do with the Mexican guys, so the Mexican guys don't want anything to do with the white guys, and so then the white guys don't want anything to do with the Mexican guys. It's a cycle. What "started it" was things hundreds of years ago. Things are not like that everywhere. It's usually more complicated than that.

The thing is, if you can't be an American, if the Americans aren't going to let you be an American, then what else can you be than a Mexican? You may have been born in America and be an American citizen, but they Americans call you Mexican and won't let you be a real American, so what else can you be? If all I can be is a Mexican, I'll be a Mexican and I'll do it all out.

Some thing with the Turks in Germany, the Pakistanis in England, the Arabs in Canada and with anyone anywhere.

I've only ever seen one group like this, and they didn't seem criminal.

Maybe they weren't. By no means are all members of oppressed minority groups criminals. Hardly.

They did make me want to learn fluent spanish so I could drop spanish comments on them and shatter their hispanic elitist dream, though.

Hispanic elitist dream? It's only a fantastic contrast to the white elitist reality. All anybody wants is reason and fairness. If people won't allow them that, then does it not only make sense to want those people gone, or to at least see that these people are not doing right?

It's always annoyed me when people seperate themselves from society, yet I often do it myself. That's why I don't often voice those particular opinions.

I don't think you quite get it. Nobody wants to be separated from society. They are forcefully separated from society. Do you think guys want to be poor and have their asses kicked by police on a regular basis? Do you think people want to have little opportunity, or even hope? Believe me, most people preffer not living in crumbling ghettos. And when I say ghettos, I do not mean the crap they talk about in pop culture rap. Ghetto does not mean slum, although most American and Canadian ghettos are slums. I mean ghetto in the true sense of the word. It's not much fun.

But if people are not accepted into the mainstream, then they're going to continue on with their lives, and if not with the mainstream people (the white anglo protestants, or in my country's case, the White anglo protestants and the white francophone catholics ((or former catholics, anyhow)) ) then they simply don't, and will withdraw into their own people, where they are accepted.

I don't mean to call you an idiot. I'm quite certain you're not. But you, like hundreds of millions of others, have got to take a closer look at things. See the big picture. If you don't want to, that's none of my bussiness. I'm not an American. But truly, it's better to see the whole thing, although, from what you've told me about yourself, it may be hard for you. Firsthand experience is helpful, but for some people very difficult to obtain. However, being middle class is nothing to be that upset about, truly.

Now, I'm not saying white people are awful, or that white kids should listen to Hip Hop. That's crap. In the absolute truth, race is a fairy tale. White people have been in Hip Hop since it's very beggining, and Hip Hop has long ago transcended the exclusive New York City scene. Hip Hop is worldwide now, for and from everyone.

But there's more than meets the eye to everything, you know?

[west]

Schme, your insights never fail to impress me. I'm being serious.

The "human ally" in my sig isn't just a pro-gay statement (although while we're at it...); it means that I am for the human race, in whatever size, shape, color etc. it happens to come in.

I'm not proud to be whitish, straightish or American, because I had no say in the matter; I could just as easily have been born anywhere, any 'race', any religion, any orientation...

I think our only good purpose on earth is to make the world a better place for everyone, and strive to correct injustice wherever we find it, no matter how deep-rooted it is. I've mentioned this on the Religion thread, but good luck finding it; that place is a mess.

Oh, and also to rock out. That's also why I'm here.

(and speaking of hip-hop, I'm obsessed with Gnarls Barkley at the moment)

[Schme]

Schme, your insights never fail to impress me. I'm being serious.

Thank you. That's nice of you to say.

[Nalaris]

Oh come on, Schme, no three page essay length response?

I'm dead serious when I say that I've never seen a disgruntled mexican, yet I've seen dozens of all mexican groups doing construction jobs, cleaning white people's houses, and I've heard of them being used on farms. But I've never seen any of them who didn't seem content. I'm positive this doesn't expand much farther than my community, but it does exist (to my knowledge) in my community. The only mexicans I've seen who have grouped together like I described are in the public school system. Adult mexicans seem just fine, although I often feel inexplicable feelings of guilt whenever I see them building someone else's new house (although it's not like there's anything I can do about it without devoting far more time than it's worth since, after all, they appear to be happy).

I think that many of the mexicans who withdraw from American society in my area do it because they want to, but I, not being mexican, an outlaw or poor, can only use information gathered from the top looking down.

[west]

You're not at the top. You're just higher up than they are. It is the continued willingness of the middle class to identify with the upper, most privileged class that always boggles my mind.

[Valsum]

Here in Spain immigrants who work hard and save can almost "achieve" middle class...most who just came live like 17 people in a house, but over the years doing those low-level jobs they can aspire to a good quality of life with a little apartment for their family, a car, etc but no luxuries like internet at home, digital TV, expensive food...