Trouble In The Netherlands

[Racetyme]

Savanik I am getting the feeling you and I are have the same political minds. Libertarian?

[Savanik]

Savanik I am getting the feeling you and I are have the same political minds. Libertarian?

Sortakinda. You wouldn't find me voting for the Libertarian party just because they're Libertarian - frankly, I find some of them a little... extreme... in their views. Over-enthusiastic, perhaps.

Myself, I believe that government does have a role in our lives - standing army, national defense, a currency, a justice system - but that its current activities extend far beyond that role and even tread upon areas of rights our founding fathers strove to protect.

I recall a time in our history when there was no income tax. When there was no need for an income tax. And then I look at our government today, and in many ways, I feel ashamed.

Too bad it's still the best out there. I just wish it was better.

Our president: caught in bed with an intern.
France's president: caught in bed with Saddaam.

Sav

[Jos Elkink]

What is the source of that article? I think it simplifies matters a bit and it shows a clear misunderstanding of Dutch culture. One must also be quite misinformed about the Netherlands to think it has a federal political system.

I am fairly sure that the Dutch government has no security issues in mind when implementing this rule. Burkas are not forbidden because one can hide a weapon in it, but because it is considered a sign of female oppression within the islam religion, which many consider unacceptable in liberal Netherlands.

I also think that calling the French laws anti-Islamic is somewhat simplistic. The key issue in France is that they want to very strictly separate church from state and education, and hence have problems with strongly religious signs in schools.

That all said, I do really strongly dislike the contemporary attitudes in the Netherlands, and while the Dutch are so proud of their liberalism and tolerance, they don't seem to notice that protecting this liberalism and tolerance by intolerance towards less liberal religions is a bit ... hypocritical ... Any policies that target Muslims while not targetting Dutch people in general is a bad law, imo. So I probably in the end agree with the article, but I think it's somewhat misinformed and badly inflamatory.

The Dutch are definitely afraid that their values are under threat thanks to Muslim immigrants; they are not that afraid of terrorist attacks. That is simply seeing Dutch laws through the eyes of American fears.

Changing attitudes in the Netherlands is one of the main reasons for me not to want to return, though ...

[formerly known as hf]

Libertarian

*shudders and turns very pale

As for the deal in the Netherlands - it's fairly disgraceful - and this is the first I've heard of it..

The deal in France was quite shocking - it's naive to think that women only wear it because of oppression - it's just as naive to think that all women wear it by choice.

What next - no wearing of the crucifix in school?

I can understand the need for secularism - I am, to an extent, for it - I do not like to think that any form of (public) education and political decision is grounded upon a religion.
I do, however, think that withing those piblic education systems, and political bodies, individuals should have all the freedom possible to pratice any religion in any way they so choose. I just can't get my head around the French decision, and can't understand why anyone would follow them on this matter...

[Jos Elkink]

I think I agree with you about the French policies ... I do think people should be free to practice their religion, as long as the state does not support one over the other, or supports any for that matter, and as long as education in public schools is free of religion ... The only thing I meant to say is that the law in Franceis more nuanced - a difficult political philosophical problem - and not just about being anti-Muslim.

What next - no wearing of the crucifix in school?

Yes, I am not 100% sure I'm in favour or against a law that bans burkas from schools ... but if it is banned, crucifixes should also be banned, of course.

[nitefyre]

What is the source of that article? I think it simplifies matters a bit and it shows a clear misunderstanding of Dutch culture. One must also be quite misinformed about the Netherlands to think it has a federal political system.

I'm 95% sure Schme wrote it. Though using vague sources such as "a government official" without citation left me with my doubts.

The Dutch are definitely afraid that their values are under threat thanks to Muslim immigrants; they are not that afraid of terrorist attacks. That is simply seeing Dutch laws through the eyes of American fears.

Schme's Canadian though, so I'm unsure if it would be the same perspective as you are suggesting.

[Jur Schagen]

Let me try to put a little perspective on these issues, from a local point of view.

Fear of Muslim extremism is indeed rising over here, which quite easily translated into fear of muslims, period. This was mainly caused by the murder of Theo van Gogh in 2004, an opinion leader with anti-muslim views (but with anti-all-kinds-of-things views too - he just loved to stir up debates), by an extremist muslim, yet lawfully Dutch citizen. Several others were threatened with the same fate, and two members of parliament with outspoken views (Wilders and Hirsi Ali) had to go undercover for months.

Then there are regular news items about terrorist being apprehended. alledgedly, "just before their act". They come from a group of perhaps a few hundred people, the same names are mentioned every time, but they can't get convicted. That's not so strange, the Justice department tried to prosecute one of them for owning maps to a nuclear plant, with some handwritten notes like "bring ladder" on it. Luckily, the judge wiped the floor with that - it appears our legal system is still working. More lawsuits will follow, and probably there will be convictions this time, mostly for illegally owning of weapons and explosives, which means low sentences, unless terrorist intent can be proven which I personally doubt. Nonetheless, our minister of justice states every time arrests like these are made, that this is about a handfull of extremists, not about the (over a million-sized on 16 million total) muslim populace in general. The gut feeling of the general population isn't always buying that, though.

Back to burka's and headwraps... The ban-burka act wasn't aimed at conceiling weapons underneath them, but it was seen as being restrictive to participate in social life. It was said that it burdened non-vocal communication. Some professions (like teachers and civil servants) are argued to be unfit for this, and burka's will probably be banned soon in these jobs - but this is a bit of a non-issue because as far as I know there are about 100 burka-wearers in the entire Netherlands, and none of them are in the jobs involved. Muscle-wrestling for voters, I think. Then there's the issue of not being recognized when wearing them, and could be abused by terrorists (making security camera footage useless after a bombing). The government is investigating on a total ban, but it appears difficult for legal reasons.

Headwraps. Debate continues. It is argued that the separation of church and state means that no religious signs are allowed in public service jobs (wearing crucifixes is suddenly included into this debate as well, even though noone cared about those for decades). Muslim women are now arguing that they're not religious signs, but rather fashion signs - and to a point I agree, some of these modern headwraps are quite nice-looking and are certainly not aimed at avoiding male arousal, which was the original reason. In any case, a small minority of right-wing politicians are screaming for an overall ban, but it won't come to that. The Christian party, which is prominent in the coalition government, is very hesitant about banning any kind of Muslim freedoms, because they know that if they ban those, Christian freedoms will be next.

In any case, there's no legislation about either burka's or headwraps yet.

On a side note, there's an interesting debate going on... a muslim woman applying for a job at a muslim school was turned down because she refused to wear a headwrap, which the school demanded... the school is condemned and should, in theory, accept her now, even though she don't want the job anymore... the refusal of gay applicants on extremist Christian schools in the eighties is being brought into this debate as well... it all makes interesting reading.

The current government (a coalitian of christians and liberals, which we call right-wing over here) is also wildly unpopular... polls show about 40% support right now. This has a variety of reasons, mostly about the wallets of the citizens, but the way the government deals with non-native pop groups may have something to do with it too... even though the left-wing opposition generally supports the anti-terrorist laws of the government, there's a clear distinction in the tone of their reasoning. And some of them are even arguing against the rapid deterioration of our civil rights (mandatory ID's, allowing body searching without any evidence or even suspicion, ever-increasing surveillance camera's, internet and mobile phone usage registering, and the like, all introduced over the last couple of years, and all under anti-terrorist reasoning... the RAF in the seventies wasn't countered like this).

Regardless of all of the above, there's definately a widening gap between the muslim and "white" population groups. I used to love my country for its tolerance. Now that is going away so fast... you can feel it. Everyone is trying to tell eachother what to do... this goes for frowning upon muslims wearing djellaba's, as well as the muslim neighbours of my girlfriend frowning upon her sunbathing in bikini in her own garden... why can't we all live our own lives anymore, without imposing our own values upon others, like we used to?

[Jos Elkink]

I 100% underwrite Jur's post

[wietse]

The current government (a coalitian of christians and liberals, which we call right-wing over here) is also wildly unpopular... polls show about 40% support right now. This has a variety of reasons, mostly about the wallets of the citizens, but the way the government deals with non-native pop groups may have something to do with it too... even though the left-wing opposition generally supports the anti-terrorist laws of the government, there's a clear distinction in the tone of their reasoning. And some of them are even arguing against the rapid deterioration of our civil rights (mandatory ID's, allowing body searching without any evidence or even suspicion, ever-increasing surveillance camera's, internet and mobile phone usage registering, and the like, all introduced over the last couple of years, and all under anti-terrorist reasoning... the RAF in the seventies wasn't countered like this).

Living in Holland i can agree to jurs post.

Our current goverment absolutely sucks. They use the fears of people to put true stupid laws like its legal to search people without reason. Actually they create those fears just like happens in the US. Also they follow mr Bush policy's in everyway and still think the war in Irak is a good thing and such. Its seems like the goverment is more and more working for the mayor companys in stead of fore the wellfare of people. But it seems people dont get it because this was all very clear when they voted for this goverment. (And there is more choice then 2 partys in Holland) It seems that people can't or will not think about what each party's program is. They only look at one face and think oh, he looks allright, what does it matter what he stands for... So in the end they get what the voted for, this makes me sad sometimes...

so much for my political opinion....[/quote]

[Schme]

I don’t really want to get into an online debate, as it’s just not something I enjoy. It just is not the same as speaking face to face.

But I will try and throw in a bit more here. And because I’m lazy, I’m going to try and do it all at once.

I was not at all talking about terrorism at all, because there is no terrorism to speak of (with the exceptions of certain state actions) in these case. Like was said by others here, the issue is the bigotry towards Muslims, and it’s surfacing in federal politics.

Now, again, as was said by others, what I feel (not that I’d know) is that the bigotry that occurs is caused by two (main) things. Firstly, the fear of Islamists being violent, making massive attacks on the non-muslim population of Holland in the style of the IRA and the group that destroyed the New York city world trade center. This fear coming from the panic politics being done in the United States.

Secondly, the fear of muslims corrupting the culture of Holland. Traditional Dutch culture is in fact radically different from what is taught to be write in Islamic holy scripture, aswell as the cultures of many traditional Islamic countries. As was said, protecting the libertarian culture of the Netherlands with oppression. (I have never heard of any “Libertarian Party” or any cleanly very specific definition of what to be libertarian is. I use the word in it’s original sense.)

This oppression and abuse, in turn, causes anger in the muslim population, causing it to withdraw into itself, aswell as lash out at the followers of traditional Dutch culture, again, angering them, and continuing the cycle (much like the situation with African-Americans and Caucasian Americans in past decades, but let’s not get into that). This culminated dramatically in the high profile murder of said journalist (although, in my opnion, he’d really had it coming. I have never liked that man, personally.)

Now, I’m not backing any ideology here, now. Nothing like that. All I’m saying with all this, really, is that the government being hypocritical. Personally, I do not agree with liberal societies such as England, Canada, America, the Netherlands and Australia. I don’t want to get into that here. Whole other thing. But seeing as the Netherlands is a society like that, it’s government should try hold uphold what it preaches. And more importantly, they should do what is right.


Anyway, I could go on and on and on, but I probably shouldn’t. I can’t write like I can speak, and it would just become boring.


But while I’m here, I thought that I’d better clarify something. France’s laws on secularism in public school do in fact apply to everyone, not just muslims. Consequently, Crucifixes are in fact not allowed to be worn or had at school in France, as are turbans, keipas, kirpans, ect. Ect.

Any yes, I wrote this. I heard about it. You want to know my sources? Not being in a coma. That’s them.

And as for "American", "Canadian" and "Bosnian" perspective, well, not everyone has the same perspective just because they are from the same nation. I'm sure some Canadians see things differently than me, as some Americans see things differently than other Americans.

The whole Canadians being different than Americans thing, that a whole other story, you know?

[Ahoyhoy]

Europe is being invaded by Islamics and the people feel they are losing their culture that has been around for thousands of years to an Islamic invasion. It's the clash of civilizations.

It appears to me many Europeans will become more and more anti-Islamic as they feel their culture being attacked more and more by the Islamic influence. Kind of like anti-Jewish sentiment rose about slowly but surely before the Holocaust.

Now the circumstances are completely different, but the hatred and restrictions appear to be growing just as they did against Jews.

Just my 2 cents.

[Schme]

I think you may is be confusing words, my friend.

Islamics is not mean anything.

Islamists are people who follow the idea of Islamism, preaching that a worldwide Islamic nation should be established and that all non-muslims must be converted by force or killed. They are very much like any other violent cultists. There are not very many of them around.

I don't know, but I think the word may be looking for is muslims.

[Pie]

Man, i HATE it when you make a PERFICTLY GOOD POST, AND SOMONE TELLS YOU WHAT WORDS YOU MISPELLED!!!

Allright... i ACTUALLY agree with you guys.. and girls.. Why band the head wrapp thingys? Could you really conseal a bom under them, and nowon notice it? I don't really know... i've never seen one. But I DON'T THINK SO. And as for all of the other stuff about why they want this to happen... I DON'T KNOW.. AND THOSE ARE GOOD GUESES,BUT THEY MIGHT BE RONG.

And i could start a debate about the war in iraque, but i won't. NOT THIS TIME!! Althou i think it is a very good thing, this Iraqe war.

[Savanik]

Properly handled, you could conceal a LAW-80 Light Anti-Tank Weapon or perhaps even one of the new MBT LAWs - if you could get your hands on them. You could, of course, do similar things with a nun's habit. Think twice before you back-talk your local Sisters of the cloth!

Sav

[DylPickle]

Religion is the worlds biggest trouble maker, next to personal greed for power. Mixed together.... Ouch.

These are my un-backed vues... Enjoy.