Other Resting objects

[kroner]

i'm going with anthony on this. game balancing is more important than realism. it makes more sense to have less easily obtainable materials required for better quality things.

you can make a cot with cheap stuff. if you want a bed, you have to work. i see no problem with that.

[Agar]

It still has to be balanced. The amount of cotton you could get a day, verses the amount of feathers you could get a day... they're both on two spectrums. That means, the lower number would need less for the furniture (Ie: Let's say you get 550 cotton a day, and 1240 feathers a day. The bed would then need less cotton than it would feathers, for balance purposes).

That's one damn big bird. Is it big bird? The big yellow Big Bird of Seasme street?

But even after being balanced that way, it still needs to be balanced in the way of comfort and availability. So the feathers will be more comfortable than the cotton? Okay. Sad thing is, feathers can be acquired in many many many places of the Cantr world. Cotton can not be. How would we go about balancing it?

Feather Bed - Should be one of the best nights rest in the game. Lots of Feathers (obviously) big wood frame, iron for nails, cloth for the mattress, and maybe some silk curtains just to be mean. Hammer, carving knife (for decoritve touches), needle, scissors, planer, whatever else you feel warrants a luxuary bed.

The ideas I presented try to balance the intended effect. Lots of feathers aren't that easy to get in many places, but still easier than cotton, which is indeed absent on several landmasses after some sources of cotton have been changed to hemp and such. But did you notice I mentioned cloth for the mattress? Anthony, YOU DON'T SLEEP ON THE FEATHERS!!! You stuff the matress with feathers. The cloth can be cotton or just cloth, however it needs programmed, but you need it before a stiff breeze blows your bed away. I also suggested a large number of tools, many requiring steel, not just iron to make, again to help balance the item.

What am I trying to say? the point is, adding a feather bed = bad idea. Sorry.

What am trying to say? The point is, not reading a post and responding on what you assume it says = bad idea. Sorry.

[Anthony Roberts]

It still has to be balanced. The amount of cotton you could get a day, verses the amount of feathers you could get a day... they're both on two spectrums. That means, the lower number would need less for the furniture (Ie: Let's say you get 550 cotton a day, and 1240 feathers a day. The bed would then need less cotton than it would feathers, for balance purposes).

That's one damn big bird. Is it big bird? The big yellow Big Bird of Seasme street?

It states "Let's say". Not "You do". You can't get 550 grams of cotton in a day, can you? No. I'm using those two values to prevent a CRB. They're EXAMPLES. I'm going "Let's pretend you can get this many feathers a day", I'm not saying you do.

The ideas I presented try to balance the intended effect. Lots of feathers aren't that easy to get in many places, but still easier than cotton, which is indeed absent on several landmasses after some sources of cotton have been changed to hemp and such. But did you notice I mentioned cloth for the mattress? Anthony, YOU DON'T SLEEP ON THE FEATHERS!!! You stuff the matress with feathers. The cloth can be cotton or just cloth, however it needs programmed, but you need it before a stiff breeze blows your bed away. I also suggested a large number of tools, many requiring steel, not just iron to make, again to help balance the item.

I know you don't sleep on the feathers, I'm stupid but not THAT stupid. Even with a cloth overtop of the feathers, there are still the stems of the feathers. They hurt. Sure, they get cut down, but there's still those odd few that stab through. And, yes, there are other ways to balance the cost of the bed to be required, again, an example to raise the amount of feathers needed:

How would we go about balancing it? Add more feathers! Sure, we could do that.

Then of course, there's the issue of a futon. Yes, I've seen a futon, I own two and sleep on one, actually. The one in my basement acts as a couch most of the time. It's made from wood, except for the hinges made from metals. It's extremely heavy. The futon in my room that I sleep on is completly made from metals. The point is, I know what a futon is, I know what it has on it. In order to call it a futon, it needs to act as a futon, and realistically as possible using the restraints of the Cantr code. A wooden hinge in possible, but how long would it last? Not very long. Furniture currently does not deteroriate, so how do we simulate this? Obviously, use a better material for the hinges. Iron.

As for cotton not available in all areas, I'm well aware of this. I didn't say that new and changed furniture items wouldn't be coming out, did I? Some may come out with wool. Some with fur. Some with hemp. Etc, etc. But at the current time, those items all need cotton, unfortunately. We all have procedures to follow here, and items can't just be added without discussing it with other members, and having it approved by the chair. These additions will take time, and I'm sorry about that, but there's nothing I can do.

Is there any MORE you want to argue about? You don't have to be so bitchy about what I said, geez. Tone it down, man. We're all welcome to our opinions, and I stated mine, don't hold it against me.

[mortaine]

Anthony, I don't know what kind of feather bed you've slept on, but you don't typically use the hard wing or back feathers for bedding. You use the soft underfeathers, the down. Down doesn't have sharp pointy bits to stab like quills. Down is soft, all the way through, even to the tips.

If you want game balance, think about what it takes to build a feather bed: The feathers from at least a dozen birds, to be realistic, at least in terms of how many feathers one would need to harvest (and that's being generous-- in truth, it takes about 100 geese to fill a down feather bed). Does ANYWHERE in Cantr have 12 birds just lolling about waiting to be killed and plucked? Can any one person kill that many birds in less than a year? No. It would take someone really determined, someone willing to patiently wait until the birds bred (hey, it's almost like domestication). Or someone willing to trade and exhaust the feather supplies of nearly every one of the nearby areas.

I think the balance is already built into the game for feather beds. You have to work *hard* to kill a bird, or get a lot of help. And if you require enough feathers (as you should-- it really ought to take a lot of dead birds to make one bed), the people around you are going to get pissed off at you endangering the bird population-- and that's before you even go for the wood! Not to mention all those birds fighting back....

[kinvoya]

Also, Anthony. I believe the "futon" is the mattress part of your bed. The metal or wooden part is a frame. I could be wrong but I don't think that most people in the world (outside of Canada and the US) who sleep on futons have the frame.

It would be nice if the mattress was separated from the bed and the futon frames. Then the mattresses could be made from cotton, hemp, wool and even reed. Adding it to the frame could give extra rest.

[Anthony Roberts]

Well, let's look at cotton. You require 3000 grams for a bed, yes?

How long would that take you? An ESTIMATE to avoid a CRB, let's say it'll take you about 2 to 3 years, based on tiredness rates being shoved in there. If there are 10 birds flying around, you could get them all killed in a year, depending on the bird. Some are easier to kill than others. Hell, do turkeys give off feathers? I dunno. Point is, they're easier to get than cotton, and there's more of them around the world than cotton, so there needs to be a lot more feathers for a bed, than cotton is needed, not just for balance purposes, but for realistic purposes.

And, I'm not a bird expert, I've no idea the differences between one feather and another. To me, they're all feathers. I apologize if my lack of knowledge makes things difficult for you all

[kroner]

some birds die in one hit with a good weapon so i don't know what that's about.
but i partially retract my previous statement about agreeing with anthony. a properly balanced feater bed would be fine with me. a properly balanced anything would be fine with me. as long as game balance is promoted i will be happy.

a properly balanced feather bed would have to be much harder to build in some ways since feathers are much easier to get than cotton cloth.

[The Sociologist]

Yes, I've seen a futon, I own two and sleep on one, actually. The one in my basement acts as a couch most of the time. It's made from wood, except for the hinges made from metals. It's extremely heavy. The futon in my room that I sleep on is completly made from metals. The point is, I know what a futon is, I know what it has on it.

Antony, the futon is or was the national "sleeping machine" of Japan and what you describe above has nothing to do with it. I suspect you've fallen for some or other marketing gimmick involving calling fold-up beds "futons". I have slept on the real thing many times. A futon does not contain any iron. Period.

[The Sociologist]

Well, let's look at cotton. You require 3000 grams for a bed, yes?

How long would that take you? An ESTIMATE to avoid a CRB, let's say it'll take you about 2 to 3 years, based on tiredness rates being shoved in there. If there are 10 birds flying around, you could get them all killed in a year, depending on the bird. Some are easier to kill than others. Hell, do turkeys give off feathers? I dunno. Point is, they're easier to get than cotton, and there's more of them around the world than cotton, so there needs to be a lot more feathers for a bed, than cotton is needed, not just for balance purposes, but for realistic purposes.

I'd say that you are forgetting a few things:

a) Tiredness has a much greater impact on the ability to hunt than on the ability to harvest.

b) Once your hunting begins to succeed, then the animals hunted drop below legal hunting limits. This can never happen with cotton. You could have 20 people harvest cotton every day for the 2-3 years needed to make each and every one of them a bed. You could not have 20 people each hit hawks every day for 2-3 years in one town.

c) There are not large surpluses of feathers everywhere. In some places, yes. In other places there are surpluses of fur, in yet other places cotton. In some places my charries have never even seen a feather.

d) A bed needs 2000 grams of cotton, not 3000.

Once there gets to be any demand at all for feathers, I'd say they would likely end up scarcer than cotton. And if a few people have hoarded feathers in the past, then they suddenly get a bonus. Just as did those who hoarded fur. So what? In business that's what happens sometimes.

[Anthony Roberts]

But...

A feather bed would be better than a cotton bed, we've already determined this.

A feather bed would require not only feathers, but some form of cloth sheet to hold the feathers, wood or iron or both for the frame, yadda yadda.

Hunting limits don't count here. I can NOT take them into account when calculating balance. Why? Those hunting limits are not constants in the games. They're all dependent on the location, for RP purposes. I can't add a, hmm, a Building called a "Castle" just so those Monarch governments can build it, can I? That would be unfair. (And yes, you can argue that EVERYONE can build it, but that's besides the point that I'm trying to convey here) So I certinaly can't lower the amount of feathers that would be needed for a bed, just because the average hunting limit at a location is 4. Those hunting limits are in effect for RP reasons, for a government, I can't take them into effect because they're all different. I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

Back on topic.

You're correct, I am forgetting that tiredness has a greater effect on hunting than gathering resources. And YOU forget, that I can't take that into effect either. When you're making yourself a boat in real life, in your garage, that's a big task to undertake, is it not? You have to get the tools, the wood, whatever. If you get more tired making that boat, then you would assembling your bike-in-a-box, that's your problem. Just because you get more tired over one thing, doesn't mean the boat will compensate itself to need less wood so that you're less tired in the end. The world doesn't work like that. Yes, true, this is Cantr and we can just press a few keys and make the amount anyway we want. But remember, we're trying to get balance here. If the feather bed is BETTER, then that means you need to put MORE work into it, which means, too bad, you're going to get more tired. In the end, though, it'll be worth it, because then you can take a snooze on your finished feather bed

And again, I realise the fact of availability of feathers. There aren't a lot in the world, but there ARE a lot of animals that carry them. Cotton may not be in abundance in some areas, but there are other materials. Just takes time for those additions to take effect.

You really want to fight this over, don't you? I'm trying to be lenient here, I'm taking your arguments into effect, and I do agree, the feather bed would be a good addition, contrary to what I said before, mainly because I was going be the simlpist way to implement a feather bed that was balanced - more feathers. But by using other materials for the bed, harder to acquire materials, that will balance it out alone. I agree there. But I still hold by my points that a lot of feathers will be needed, regardless, mainly because feathers can be acquired almost everywhere, and because a feather bed will be superiour to a cotton bed, so it makes more sense to give it a bit of a challenge.

[Lumin]

To be honest, right now I couldn't care less about this whole argument. I think it would be nice to have some kind of luxury bed available, but I'm willing to bet that right a lot of characters aren't even in a position to build a cot right now, let alone any kind of bed at all.

I'm much more interested in the suggestions for simpler furniture. The reed mat was a great suggestion, and so was the hammock. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing different grades of cots/hammocks/mats requiring different materials; I think some kind of hemp and wood arrangement would be nice, and definitely a sleeping bag. Even if it was worse than a cot and not portable, I think the fact that it would have very simple tool requirements would make it desireable in some areas.

Let the higher-end stuff get as elaborate as you want, but if crippling exhaustion is an unavoidable fact of Cantrian life now, (and for some reason we're unable to do the natural thing and simply lie down and rest when we're tired) then reasonable solutions should be available to *everyone* early on in their lives, not just the more established characters; especially when you consider that older characters are the ones that already have goods stockpiled,and a support network of friends. They don't even *need* to work for basic survival.

It's the newspawns that need furniture the most, and right now they're the ones who're the least likely to have access to it.

[formerly known as hf]

modular sleeping items...?

Hemp/Cotton/Silk etc. sleeping sheet - made of hemp/cotton/silk cloth etc. requires needle
Hide sleeping sheet
fur sleeping sheet

Feather Mattress - requires sleeping sheet and feathers
Fur stuffed mattress (?) - you get the idea...

Futon frame
bed frame
cot frame etc...

Bed with sheet - requirtes bed frame and sheet
bed with mattress - req. bed frame and mattress
futon with... yada yada yada

Just a thought...

[Lord_Igor]

IIrc there is grass in the game. You should be able to use that for resting in some way. Fill a madrass perhaps.

[nitefyre]

Sociologist's alternative idea of a leather couch is good, so let me bring it back up.

Just like jewelry, weapons, shields, tools, alternatives are needed for furniture types, besides wooden chairs/rocking chairs/ cotton.

[SekoETC]

Yeah I know at least one character who'd appriciate a couch and there doesn't seem to be cotton around. Leather would be ideal for cover but insides then... I hope they won't require cotton since hasn't it vanished from the old island totally?