The Combat System

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Do you think the combat system is broken?

Yes
6
24%
No
19
76%
 
Total votes: 25
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Doug R.
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Re: The Combat System

Postby Doug R. » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:47 pm

Mr. Bones wrote:Power hunger has never been a strange concept to mankind. Alexander the Great, Julius Ceaser, Octavian, Napoleon, Hitler, and many more representing every group of people under the sun have felt the need to expand their lands. Real estate changes hands, it's just our way.


No, but they never used "I'm power hungry" as their justification. They used "fear of the other," religion, geo-politics, or economics as their justification. We have none of these in Cantr to any extent that they could be used to justify conflict.

People need a reason that makes sense to die for a cause. "Just because" isn't one of them.

(Actually, xenophobia is a very strong violence motivator, but only between different language groups)
Hamsters is nice. ~Kaylee, Firefly
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Black Canyon
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Re: The Combat System

Postby Black Canyon » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:51 pm

Doug R. wrote:...All you need to to have resources deplete and appear in other areas. This would:

1) Make static maps nearly useless for finding resources, making exploring again a viable occupation
2) Prevent the formation of unbeatable power-bases around iron-producing resources (i.e. static power structures)- eventually, they'll disappear and appear in a "have not's" town.
3) Give pretext for war. If the former haves still want to have, they'll need to move personnel into the new location.




You know... this is a pretty interesting idea. It would certainly be a cure for stagnation. And even the most established communities would have to rely on explorers and traders much more than they already do...
“Now and then we had the hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates.”

― Mark Twain
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EchoMan
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Re: The Combat System

Postby EchoMan » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Also it wouldn't hurt undeveloped areas as much as many other ideas about "rot the piles/tools of the rich".
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Mr. Bones
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Re: The Combat System

Postby Mr. Bones » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:26 pm

Doug R. wrote:
Mr. Bones wrote:Power hunger has never been a strange concept to mankind. Alexander the Great, Julius Ceaser, Octavian, Napoleon, Hitler, and many more representing every group of people under the sun have felt the need to expand their lands. Real estate changes hands, it's just our way.


No, but they never used "I'm power hungry" as their justification. They used "fear of the other," religion, geo-politics, or economics as their justification. We have none of these in Cantr to any extent that they could be used to justify conflict.

People need a reason that makes sense to die for a cause. "Just because" isn't one of them.

(Actually, xenophobia is a very strong violence motivator, but only between different language groups)


You pointed out the situation involving the hematite earlier. The need to control resources can become a good motivation when restrictions placed on a resource are deemed excessive. So there is still that possible motivator for creating an empire in game, if you control the resources then you don't have to worry about restrictions. Another motivation is people hating each other in game. Populations are so small, even a dispute between a few people from each group could result in a war. Plus there are also some social differences with language, religion, political structure and such, so those kinds of wars aren't impossible either. So there are still motivators for war in game but the problems that motivate war in Cantr aren't as bad as in real life.
Voltenion
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Re: The Combat System

Postby Voltenion » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:14 am

Mr. Bones wrote:So there are still motivators for war in game but the problems that motivate war in Cantr aren't as bad as in real life.


That's mostly our fault though, for being bad roleplayers. The amount of characters out there with no emotions at ALL is why we have so few wars. I've seen towns with 10 men and 1 woman and there's no envy or dispute for her at all, which is ridiculous! Completely ridiculous! Where's the humanity in our characters? If we only wait around for lack of resources to start a war, we're not going anywhere. There are a whole bunch of "war starting factors" that don't happen that are 100% the players fault and not the game's mechanics.
Such as: already stated romance; lust; religious wars (I think it shows a very bad quality of RP when 90% of our characters are agnostics, when it might be close to the opposite in real life); political stands (we don't all have to agree with the same laws/way of life); pride and group rivalries (my group/town> your group/town, such a natural things us humans have almost since birth, the whole "us vs them" attitude also shows we aren't playing to full potencial); jealously; discrimination (I've read we unconsciously treat beautiful/tall people better, why do cantrians treat everyone equally (although this is a tough one, since 9/10 newspawns are prettier than Angelina Jolie)); gender wars (I've seen some attempts at this ingame, but I think this should really be tried more often. It's the most basic "us vs them" that there can exist) and many more, feel free to contribute since it might give ideas to other people with the possibility ingame to start that something.

My point is, it's mostly our fault and not the games mechanics. Sometimes all it takes is a little rivalry since your newspawn days and you'll see that slowly turn in a war or at least a conflict where many players can take a part of. I think we should ask ourselves where the humanity of our characters is more times. I could write a lot more, but I don't want to bore you.
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Doug R.
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Re: The Combat System

Postby Doug R. » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:56 am

I think it's too easy to run away from conflict in Cantr. Almost no one will stay in a town long enough to let a rivalry or conflict grow heated enough to spark violence. Someone will just leave, because it's easy.
Hamsters is nice. ~Kaylee, Firefly
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Marian
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Re: The Combat System

Postby Marian » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:44 pm

War and conflict can't and IMHO shouldn't be expected to be driven just by roleplay though. Or if it was pretty much everyone involved would have to be a power hungry control freak or bored, self-destructive psychopath...though there are of course more than enough of the latter in the game.

If instead you're playing a realistic character you might get all worked up about a personal situation but you're at some point going to have some practical thoughts about your wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around you before resorting to openly murdering people whose friends are capable of murdering you back. If there were an actual objective reason or something to be gained by attacking another town I guess you could always use that as an excuse to drum up support for your personal crusade, but...there's really not, ever. Even assuming you won a complete victory with no chance of retribution, you've just taken your handful of active citizens, killed off the target's handful of active citizens, and now have all you've done is lost half your population because they need to stay there to occupy an empty town full of stuff you don't need.

I've played unscrupulous characters with lots of ambition before, in fact I'm playing one right now, but they're usually smart enough not to tip their hand too early. Why risk it all starting an open conflict when you can get literally everything you want with a little flattery and at most a private murder or two somewhere down the road? I've had characters who have been fully equipped the first day of spawning and handed keys within a week. In my experience most towns have more vehicles, buildings, and resources than they know what to do with and are only too happy to give them away - so what rational human being is going to risk their life fighting for something they can get for free?

Now if I had a character in a forest or on a mountain with a chronic food shortage and the potato farming neighbors were for whatever reason refusing or ignoring or outright taking advantage of our attempts at trade, THAT would be a strong incentive for even 'good' characters to march to war. But of course resource shortages in this game are basically unheard of so there's never even a remote chance of anything like that ever happening. v:|v

Though I play non-bloodthirsty characters for the most part, it's because I really do find it more realistic, interesting, and IMO helpful for the 'society sim' part of the game than the alternative with the way major conflicts usually play out now. I enjoy diplomacy and working out agreements, or around them...of course I get very few chances to actually do anything with that because there aren't many conflicts to mediate, and when someone does decide their character is a trouble maker who believes or acts a certain way they're usually going to hold onto that without compromise even in the face of death. :roll: But it's fun sometimes just having characters break laws sometimes to see if they can weasel out of the consequences so at least there's that.

And then there's the sad fact that you can't stir up much trouble in a town if there isn't much of a town to begin with. Sure I could click everyone in a tiny community to death, but then there'd just be one more ghost town and that's not interesting for anybody. Stick it out there though and try to help it grow and you create an environment to support future RP. Boring as it may sound, I've even begun to feel like EXCITING!!!! roleplay and drama are overrated...everybody's got their disabled character or their sociopath character or their slutty character or their ambitious character or whatever their quirk is, what we don't have a lot of are reliable workers that are needed to keep towns from stagnating. (it's far too late for businesses, I used to love having characters try to start them until I realized supply and demand isn't really a thing that works in Cantr anymore, if it ever did)

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