Emoting (Split from Annoyingly Well-Played Chars)

[deadboy]

*she brushes her hair out of her face and settles down at her computer, quickly bringing up the Cantr forum and clicking her way to the thread with the newest response. When she's sees that there's a reply to her own post, she reads it thoughtfully, mulling over the words for a long moment before seeming to come to a descision and clicking the 'reply' button, after which point she enters her name and password and then taps away at the keyboard, writing what might be considered an unnecessarily long response* Well, it's really a matter of opinion, I guess, but like I said earlier, long emotes may have their place in certain situations... *here she pauses, taking a long sip from a glass of cold orange juice* ...but it gets annoying when people write a whole paragraph for every trivial thing. *her hands pause, hovering over the keyboard as her eyes flicker over the words she'd just written, a slight frown of concentration on her face as she corrects a typo here and there, then nods in satisfaction and reaches for her mouse again in order to click the 'Submit' button, before standing up and stretching, yawning a little and leaving the room to continue getting ready for work*

Ok, basically, no, emoting should not be used that much as it does not add anything to the paragraph. All of my emotes add something to the character, even if that something is the fact that the emote does nothing Haha.... warp your minds around that simple minded fools!

Umm.... anyway, carrying on, I also have a problem with people who reveal their characters thoughts whilst emoting, unless they reveal it subtely, for example facial expressions, or movements, in which case it is fine.

Oh and by the way when a paragraph with that much emoting in is needed I will quite happily write it, in fact in very complex cases when a character has many thoughts and feeling that need to be conveyed, but when they are not in the right frame-set for talking, for any of a multitude of reasons, I have been known to write paragraphs that long of pure emoting

[Jos Elkink]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think I agree with Marian ... When not revealing thoughts (this one is dubious!) such emoting is of course allowed in Cantr, but I certainly hate them and generally stop reading anything such a character says ...

[Nosajimiki]

Marian's example is a case of bad emoting because of it's frivolousness. Knowing one of his charies personally, I can however vouch for Deadboy's ability to write an 8 line paragraph of emote without mucking the game up. Typically, that kind of emoting should however be reserved for characters under severe metal duress which would involve significant body language or mutes/foreigners who use them as a means of communication. If you are either, it would probably actually bother me more to be frugal on the emoting than to stand around being idle b/c of it or to stand around town talking about how depressed or suspicious you are or what not.

[Dreamhand]

Okay... I'm a little confused here. I thought this was a role-playing game.

Now granted, revealing thoughts in an emote makes no sense, but come on... limiting role-play to pure dialogue is like walking into an ice cream store and ignoring all the flavors and toppings. For example...

Example #1
Hey! Put that down!

Example #2
*he looks up and sees Argyle take the hammer. His face turns red and he rises, tromping menacingly towards Argyle* Hey! Put that down!

Example #3
*She sees Argyle take the hammer and grins. Glances over at Bob and winks before shouting...* Hey! Put that down! *... then bursts into a fit of laughter*

Same words... totally different intent. I'm not saying every post should be an epic saga, but including body language and expression and physical "intent" in your postings just deepens the whole exchange.

And if you're doing something and not talking but want to convey those actions you your fellow players as an invitation to engage in role-play... well, isn't that what a role-playing game is? I see the point Marion was making in that post, but truth be told, I know a lot more about Marion's "character" that way than I would with just the words of the response.

Some of us enjoy writing... and exploring our characters through full rich dialogue that includes a description - sometimes lengthy, often not - of the physical element of what's happening. I know everyone's not into that but the notion that I'll be dismissed as a... a... what, I don't know... "emoter"... for it is a little disturbing.

[SekoETC]

The next Cantr comic will comment on that among other things.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

The way I see it, if something would be visible and affect the overall impact significantly IRL AND cannot be reproduced using game mechanics, then it can and should be emoted. That being said, there are many things people emote that don't really add anything except more words for people to read.

[Jos Elkink]

Dreamhand, your examples are definitely acceptable emoting in Cantr. I personally get very quickly bored when reading such roleplaying, and I totally disagree that without it, you're not really roleplaying. I think we have a different idea of what that means .

In some cases, emoting is important. For example when it's really part of the character (e.g. a mute trying to communicate) or when it really adds to a very serious / emotional situation. But in many cases it adds, imho, really very little. In fact, in your examples it doesn't. "Hey! Put that down!" is really pretty clear and I can easily imagine the rest. That somebody looks a little agitated when saying that is obvious from the "Hey" and the exclamation marks; that you turn to the person you're speaking to is also obvious. That it's to the one picking up the hammer - yeah, maybe that's unclear. So a "*turns to Argyle* Hey! Put that down!" suffices. The rest is adding words without adding to the game. Again, imho ...

Roleplaying, for me, is about consistency in your characters behaviour, and thinking about what the real goals / style of that char is and not adjusting unnecessarily to your wishes as a player or to circumstances, unless it really fits in-character. But you can certainly play a very interesting, consistent, and remarkable character without emoting. By the kind of actions you take, but your style of talking to people, but the notes you write, etc. Examples that come to mind: Matthias Zahlmann; Jonathan Russell; John Woodhouse; Sester Gartaf; John Redfish (?); and hundreds of others.

Finally, to be sure: emoting is allowed as long as if does not (1) show thoughts or things others cannot see; (2) affect the material world / objects.

[deadboy]

Ok, I wholeheartedly disagree with Jos on this matter, Dreamhands examples all added something completely different to the game, and following that, he also gave each of the characters a little more depth, just through about a line. For example his first example is confusing, his second example I would take to be a slightly grumpy man, and the third example is a flirty woman. The changes definitely add something :S

[Nakranoth]

So no "*bursts into flames* Ahhh!!! *runs around in circles flailing*"?
At least without having first be doused with gas or something first... then playing with the fire pits...

[the_antisocial_hermit]

I think there has to be some level of emoting to go with the consistency of character. It represents the bodily cues, such as a smile or frown which would not be seen merely by punctuation. Without the emoting in Dreamhand's examples, yes, it's easy to pick up that the person may be agitated, but in one of the examples, the character is indeed not agitated but joking. That wouldn't be obvious to most people without the bodily cues in the emotes. It might be obvious to the person being spoken to, if they were very good friends with the person yelling at them.

I don't think excessive emoting is necessary. But just a little is necessary for even the most basic character, unless the character is an emotionless, faceless robot. Even my most emotionless character smiles or frowns on (very rare) occasion. I think consisitency is the most important thing but the emoting kind of goes hand in hand with keeping that consistency. It really represents the cues that we pick up in real life from body language. Actions speak louder than words, so they say, and it's true in many cases. You know if someone is irritated or angry by their stance or facial expression, even though they might say they're fine; even if the tone of their voice shows indifference, their body betrays them. Without any emoting, you're leaving out the most universal language in the world.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

I would have to strongly disagree with you on that, Jos. Actually, the emotes add quite a bit in the examples. 2 and 3 are worlds apart in what they really mean. Without the additional information added by the emotes, the intent of the speaker would not be recognized. It is quite clear that the speaker is rather pissed off in 2, whereas 3 has a much lighter, jocular tone. In reality, one can tell such things simply by litening to the tone of the speaker's voice, but since intonation doesn't carry over text, those emotes mean the difference between an angry confrontation and a lighthearted request.

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Split the posts as it was getting way off topic.

[Jos Elkink]

Ok, I should make it a little more nuanced, I guess. First of all, I want to re-emphasise that I'm not talking about game rules or something - just about what I enjoy reading when playing and what I joined, just personal taste. Secondly, I must retract what I said slightly - the differences between 2 and 3 are indeed fairly big, and I kind of didn't read carefully enough.

I think I should rephrase it to saying that I don't really like lengthy emotes but I do like the brief ones that just describe facial features or tone. So definitely the *frowns*, *smiles*, *laughs*, *jumps up and down*, etc. but not he extensive stories. I certainly enjoy reading novels, but for that I ... well, take a novel ...

For me the effect is very straightforward: when there's lengthy emoting, I get tired of reading and usually frustrated before I even reached the top of the events page. It literally tires me. Longer speeches are very different, because they tend to matter much more for the game.

I guess it also has to do with what parts of the game you care about most. I care about the politics, military, economics, religions, groups, companies, etc. - not about the love affairs, friendships, etc. It was a funny discovery to see that many players like Cantr exactly for that, and that the game has space for that, but I never designed Cantr to play those parts . And emoting is very much part of that, and has very little implications for the game in terms of politics etc.

[Nakranoth]

But then, on the same note, no average character has much any of an impact on the overall politics through emotes, or speach. Polotics is one of those things that sortof mimic the general moods and relations between the leaders, so when a leader emotes to anothe leader, it can have just as much an impact on the polotics as any speach could.

[psymann]

I really agree with Dreamhand, with a little of Jos thrown in for good measure.

I have already had a couple of strange situations where my character has had to guess the body language behind someone's words. They've told me not to do something, for example. My character has come over all apologetic, and promising never to do anything so bad again and will they be forgiven, only to find that actually, the words "Don't do that again" were said with a smile and were just a friendly request. How can you tell without the emotes?

However, as Jos points out, it doesn't need fourteen lines of text to convey.

Good (IMO):

*fiercely* Don't do that again *scowls and storms off*
or
*calmly* Don't do that again *raises eyebrow and walks away*

because they tell me whether I am deep trouble or just need to be a bit more careful in future.

Bad (IMO):

Don't do that again
or
*stands to full height and towers over her, eyes flaming and fists clenched - the intense power of his words filling the air with sound, as his face reddens as if the blood is boiling under his skin* Don't do that again *scowls at her with a menacing look, his knuckles turning white as his hands grip tighter, before turning with speed and storming off in the opposite dirrection, kicking the dust up from the ground as he stomps his feet and hits his hands together rhythmically*

Because the first doesn't tell me enough, and the second is really dull to read and adds very little compared to the first "good" example.

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Also, the other importance of emoting, which Dreamhand mentions, is that of inviting others to roleplay.

I might have a character who is spending 12 days gathering wood. They are just getting on with it in their own time, and there is absolutely no reason for them to want to talk to anyone during that time. Just every so often, when not a lot else is going on, adding something like:

*puts axe down briefly, and rubs arm, before continuing to chop more trees*

allows others to have something to react to. Since they can't RP for me, if I RP nothing just because I'm not speaking, it is impossible for them to RP with me in any way. The above short sentence allows them the chance to ask how my wood collecting is going along, or offer to help, or ask if I've hurt my arm, or ask if the axe is working well, etc.

Again, writing twenty paragraphs of description ever hour will be annoying as hell, but just once a day or so adding a quick sentence in to explain what your character is doing, and allow him/her to be used in others' RP is really helpful.

psymann