Realism in Cantr - a discussion thread

[SumBum]

I'm in favor of consumption, definitely. Food rot, building/vehicle rot, requiring small amounts of resources to do repairs, weather/climate influences..... Changes that would give importance to things are great.

What I'm not in favor of are things that introduce time-wasting clicks (ie: having to step outside of a building to pass notes to someone in a vehicle), things that limit progress (ie: not being able to work while driving a car), or things that would make life harder in a reduced population. The idea is to make Cantr easy to play and possible to play, even for players who have limited time. If you want to boost RP and interaction then don't bog players down with an obstacle course of navigation, micromanagement of projects, and excessive button clicking in the name of realism.

[Snickie]

Isn't that the job of the towns, however?
Ooh, ooh. Maybe new players' first two chars should only spawn in towns larger than some size, so no new player ever gets in the old left-behind-by-the-pair-of-lovemaking-travelers situation again.

I'm pretty sure that's already in the coding, though not necessarily like that. More like the first two characters are more likely to spawn in a more populated area than in a less populated area.

[Swingerzetta]

I'm in favor of consumption, definitely. Food rot, building/vehicle rot, requiring small amounts of resources to do repairs, weather/climate influences..... Changes that would give importance to things are great.

What I'm not in favor of are things that introduce time-wasting clicks (ie: having to step outside of a building to pass notes to someone in a vehicle), things that limit progress (ie: not being able to work while driving a car), or things that would make life harder in a reduced population. The idea is to make Cantr easy to play and possible to play, even for players who have limited time. If you want to boost RP and interaction then don't bog players down with an obstacle course of navigation, micromanagement of projects, and excessive button clicking in the name of realism.

I think everyone here is in agreement with that, at this point. Extra clicking and the inability to play this game in small windows of time wouldn't make anyone happy. But surely there are changes that would make the Cantr experience richer by adding depth and detail in ways that avoid the pitfalls mentioned above. As I said before, an example of realism done well is road travel. It's complex, requires thinking, planning, and effort to make it work well, but it is still a matter of only one click when you decide to do it.

[Chroma Key]

Don't you just hate it when SumBum posts? She never leaves me anything else to say!

I can't stress the following enough, though:

What I'm not in favor of are things that introduce time-wasting clicks (ie: having to step outside of a building to pass notes to someone in a vehicle), things that limit progress (ie: not being able to work while driving a car), or things that would make life harder in a reduced population. The idea is to make Cantr easy to play and possible to play, even for players who have limited time. If you want to boost RP and interaction then don't bog players down with an obstacle course of navigation, micromanagement of projects, and excessive button clicking in the name of realism.

[Uma]

What I'm not in favor of are things that introduce time-wasting clicks (ie: having to step outside of a building to pass notes to someone in a vehicle), things that limit progress (ie: not being able to work while driving a car), or things that would make life harder in a reduced population. The idea is to make Cantr easy to play and possible to play, even for players who have limited time. If you want to boost RP and interaction then don't bog players down with an obstacle course of navigation, micromanagement of projects, and excessive button clicking in the name of realism.

I think there's a very clear middle ground. I very much support 'jobs' you do that sort of have a sweeping purpose. Imagine if you, much like resting, could go on 'repair duty' and you would fix all the weapons in a room. Maybe if performed outside, you would repair vehicles and buildings. maybe you can flag some vehicle and buildings as 'no repair' or 'condemned'. when there's no more things to repair, your character stops doing it. No one wants to check back every 3 real hours to change repairing shovels, but we all like decay because it prevents superhoarding and promotes cooperation.

what if there was 'guard duty' (prevent all dragging, try to step in and help attackees)? what if there was a 'firetending' job that let you keep the fires stoked and everyone in town warm for a whole day from a 2 hour project (poor person's warmth).

what if 'build things' was a similar job? you would just do the assorted 'tool making' jobs laid out in the room.

I think you could make click in-intensive ways to do a lot of small things.

[Swingerzetta]

Okay, really now, we're all in agreement that the less clicks to perform a single task the better, right?

[kicking jay]

Confirmed. The less click inintensive (tensive?) tasks are, the better.

I promote the idea of mouse gestures.

[Tiamo]

There are a few groundrules for good game design that apply here.
* It is always a good thing to make the game handling (the User Interface) as simple and intuitive as possible. No unnecessary clicking, scrolling and page selecting; present the in-game info in a clear, complete, logical and understandable way; don't clutter the game pages with unnecessary options and data. This requires a balance which is different for every single game.
* Always keep in mind what makes the game interesting for players and what is seen as tiresome and boring. Avoid the latter, support the former. Now what makes Cantr interesting? The roleplay? The tension of quick action? The (slow) progress and buildup? The cooperation? The accumulation of history and memories?
* Make sure players want to log on to the game regularly, to check on their situation. Interesting events should have happened every time they log on (in the frequency you have designed the game to be played, not every 10 seconds), events a player finds interesting and feels inclined to react upon. This way players enjoy the game the most, will stay online for a while to add their contribution to the in-game developments, accumulate an emotional investment in the game and will keep coming back for more.
* A game may be complex in itself (many strategic and tactical options, different ways to play the game, hard to optimize gameplay) as long as playing the game (making the moves) is, or seems, simple.

I think a certain amount of realism, as in being clearly derived from real life, would definitely help improve Cantr. This realism should not be found in endless details, micromanagement or complex procedures, but rather in the results of player actions (for better or for worse), in possibilities, limitations and inevitabilities that resemble real life's, and in a wide range of general gameplay options.

[Uma]

to be clear i don't think the game should be 1 for 1 realistic. that would get really old when everyone begins to debate the calorie value of rice vs rye....but...if the game emulated various societal needs in such a way that interactions are more necessary for 'the best' things.

I don't need my rats to grow, mature, find rat love, get rat married, then produce a litter of rats with their own hopes and dreams. but I would love if it unattended food in rooms for years accumulates rats while ruining food. basicly I'd like ignored food to turn into rats .I would like cities to produce more rats than empty forests because there are predators there. maybe even, less predators leads to more vermin.

because it simulates a society having pest problems. a society having to deal with food regularly rather than living off of the former mayors stash from years of collecting sleeper food. It could create professions and demands for pest fighting measures.

interactions and interdependency don't have to be 1 for 1 realistic to be interesting. they just need to be something that drives the game to simulate society.

[Bmot]

I think one important thing in adding realism to character reaction (cold, wind, "comfort", food), one has to be careful with quickly adding too much requirements.

I assume we're all from pretty much the most developed part of the world, and as such are used to a very high level of comfort and protection. If we're going to make Cantrians require an equal level of comfort and protection, not only it will make the game maybe less fun, or at least very much changed. It will also maybe be not as realistic as it would seem from our point of view.
So, if adding realism, make sure realism isn't pointed too much specifically at our point of view. Think how other people in less developed parts of the world would look at it, too.

Of course, this all doesn't have much to do with food rot, for example. Just saying realism isn't always as black/white as it seems