Clarification of IC/OOC Machine Knowledge

[nitefyre]

Actually, I really don't like your ideas. Not that I said so previously, or that it matters, but I think scrolls, blueprints, etc. would not be a good thing to add to cantr.

Besides, the question was never: what would you add to cantr to resolve the non-issue of inventing machines?..It was: Do/should charactes know the functions of machines that they have never seen?

Do you really not like my topic?

When did I say anything about Blueprints, scrolls, etc? (WTF???)
I refered my original post to answer your question, as you may scroll back and see. And you couldn't live with letting it be as a grey area to give us some room for RP.

Anyways, I'm really starting to abhore your topic.

[The Industriallist]

Ooh, sorry. That was only the second page of posts. You did answer the question.

Nope, no grey area can exist. Either it is CR breach, or it isn't. Can't be "semi-CR breach".

Can't just leave it alone either. It isn't just a matter of RP unless the player already knows the function of the machine. For some people, building new machines is an expensive shell game. That has to either be required for everyone, or prevented for everyone. Otherwise, it just isn't fair.

Enjoy your abhorement (probably not a word). Hatred is a source of power for the dark side.

[formerly known as hf]

Ok... I havn't read all of the posts, but just wanted to ask this...

I'm fairly new to Cantr - been playing for about a month, and just assumed that due to the spawning age of chracters, they had a small idea of what things do - i.e - a glass oven will make glass, but they probably don't know exactly what materials are to be used in the glass oven...

Before this was even posted, I had started putting this information, for the use of one of my characters, and possibly to be dropped in note form, how to make each tool and machine (materials and tools req.) and what my character knew each tool or machine was used for, and the materials used for that. I was going to get him to start asking people to fill in the gaps once I had this information in note form.

Would this be a breach at all?

[The Industriallist]

If you only recorded things your character observed, there's certainly no breach. If you assumed things like "glass oven makes glass", there probably isn't a breach, but there isn't yet a ruling on that. If you've been transferring knowledge of what each machine does between characters, that also isn't ruled yet as far as I can tell...

From my repressive perspective, anything but learning by building machines and seeing what they do should be a breach. But that is only my completely unofficial opinion.

[Agar]

I was thinking about doing the note thing too. I don't see how it could be a CR breech at all, since you are asking in game for in game information. You put down what you know from your observations, ask other people to put down what they know from thier observations and the whole is greater that the sum of the parts. I hope it works.

[The Industriallist]

The thing to worry about in asking people is whether they are paying attention to such rules. How does this character I'm asking know the function of a stone table(smelting furnace, loom, etc.)? Have they actually seen one?
Other than that, it's a good idea.

[Bowser]

This is a grey area that has no answer and even if it did have an answer, it would be an unenforcable CR breech. If you feel like having your new characters ask what is needed to build a hammer each time you spawn, go for it. I won't be joining you.

But I will continue this debate, i enjoy jolly arguements....

Who taught my characters to speak? Who taught them definitions of words such as Lake, stone, wood, and buildings. Does my character have see the sea to know what it is? If my new spawn never hits the location button, does he know what a path is? Exactly how stupid is this new spawn?

Smarter gamers who know the OOC definition of the word oven, know it is used to cook food. Dumb gamers who think an oven is used to make babies may be angry to find out they wasted their time.

The first 20 years take care of the Tabula Rasa.

[The Industriallist]

Please stop linking things on the manufacturing menu to things off it. Any character can tell, IC, that a stone hammer takes...what...50g stone and 65g wood? and two days to make. It is in the common knowledge menu.

But do they know what to feed into a rope machine before they build it? Do they know that, unlike IRL, no water is required to make bread? Do they know that you need a bellows to make steel? Do do they know WTF a wheelbarrow does? (I know what it should do, but I don't know if that is what it does).

And if you say they ought to know all that, please tell me (and all of them) the answers to the first and last of those questions (at least), because I don't know them. And there are plenty more such questions that fall under the exact topic of knowing the functions of machines.

I for one would be willing to finger breaches if it were ruled as one. But just labeling it as a breach has a significant effect, at least on the players who read the forums.

[Agar]

How is the in game characters knowing how the in game machines work a CR breach anyway? I mean, hematite has no in game description, and for my first 5 or 6 characters, I had no idea how to get iron or more than bone weapons. Then I overheard people talking in town about hematite and limestone and etc, and there it was.

But really, everything I've learned about hematite has been gleaned from these forums or in game discussion. So, wouldn't ALL iron production ultimatly lead back to someone using OOC knowledge in character? Should we take away all the iron using objects because of it? Wow, that would be a mess.

I don't see there being a hard and fast way to define a CR breech in the knowledge of objects. Unless we all have to have every single character figure out what food might be in a location that can be eaten daily on thier own, some OOC knowledge needs to be used. But OOC knowledge that gives a character an unfair advantage is bad, no questions.

It would be like Calico Jack having characters in the town's he is going to attack make crowbars inside buildings, then before he attacks having them pry open the door to the steel storage and let him steal all the steel.

Now, if we can only use knowledge we've seen ourselves, wouldn't every map be a CR breech, since it lets characters have knowledge they don't have themselves?

[kroner]

agar> you seem to be a very confused person. maps are still info that you get in character.
the point is that it needs to be well defined what info is fair game to know ooc, and then that information needs to be made publicly available so that no one has an advantage from a player's stand point. whatever is not allowed to be known ooc you would have to gather individually with each character and rp ignorance until you did. this should be enforced. of course none of this can happen until a clear and official ruling is made on what ooc knowledge is allowed and what is not.

[Agar]

Ok, so a note on the ground telling everyone what machine did what would be fine, since it would be just like a map. But, a post on the forums or a site telling us what machine does what is a CR breech. Hmm

The Balman, or Best Map, or whatever, lets me know what resources are in Quill forest even though I'm in the Vrays, and that's all good, because it's all (presumably) been seen in game.

So if we wanted to make a machine index, we need to find out what machines are in a location and thier operation, then either build the missing machines or travel to find them. That way each machine has it's information discovered in game, and as long as that list is dropped around the area, its all good, cause it's all in game.

[XBL]

Exactly agar.

But now comes something more difficult: what about a knowing what a machine does? I know an Oven is used for baking stuff. But that's me, knowing that, does my char know it?

Well.. and there comes te problem: which ooc info are we allowed to use, and which aren't. It's impossible to make a list or something about that, because you simply can't 1) check it (enforce it) 2) use it (everyone will use the information anyway, mainly because of 1) and because of the resources it will cost to 'try' things).

Jochem

[Agar]

Thats why a machine equivelent to that Balman map would be great. Info is found out in game by looking at machines that exist and have been built, so there is no OOC info to police. As soon as I have time to make another character, that's my next quest.

[formerly known as hf]

Ok...

I'm just going to go ahead and start this thing.

As far as I see it, everything in the manufacturing list all characters have access to (to build tools, weapns, machines, vehicles etc.), and so all characters know how to make all of these items.

But the whether or not every character knows what each machine is used for, or what machine is required to make such-and-such a material, doesn't seem to have been answered.

I'll start by making a list of all the items that all charcters have access to, and ask people to fill in the blanks (i.e: what each machine is used to make, and what materials it uses to make that) but I'll add a 'disclaimer' or something to ask that anyone providing my character with information only uses IC information for their character doing the informing

I'm still confused though, it seems obvious that a glass oven makes glass, but maybe not as obvious what materials or tools the glass oven might need to make that glass.

And with things like haematitie... I assumed, as it seems most people do. that due to the spawning age of all characters, they have some basic knowledge. I guessed my character knew haematite needed to be crushed to make iron ore, but I asked around IC to find out how to go about that.
But that was obviously me using some OOC knowledge, assuming that my character had the same basic knowledge. But as everyone's OOC knowledge differs, is that fair? Also, now I know how to cruch haematite, would all my new characters need to ask the same thing if they wanted iron, or would they know?

*groans with the annoying complexity of it all*

Seems as this was so easy - everyone assumed that all their characters started of with the same knowledge as they had OOC. But now these questions have been raised...

Damn the person who asked this... Things used to be so easy... [/i]

[The Industriallist]

*examines economic statistics for hell*
Plenty of geothermal energy, but no existing industry or other natural resources...I'll pass, thanks.

@XBL: All the parts of the CR are nearly impossible to enforce if the people trying to break it are smart enough. A list of what characters automatically know about what machines do would be sufficient to define the rule. I think if the rule was declared, it would be obeyed (generally).