Comprehensive Combat Re-Write

[Alladinsane]

I am curious about some of the ranged attributes. I think you said you are planning that a bit further down the road and it won't be phased in immediately. So for now, I guess I am asking within the realm of theory.

1. If you were adding a ranged factor in, would it be possible to create a 'sniper effect' where the defender might not be able to respond, but might not even know the origin of the shot. Other witnesses might see it, but a cowardly shot (theoretically) in the back might be a total surprise.

2. Would two ships even need to dock up in order to have combat? This could really change the naval aspect of the game. What about traveling vehicles in a running 'gunbattle' (crossbow battle).

3. what about volley fire with multiple attackers launching projectiles simultaneously, one shield could not possibly guard against all shots. The first thought would be that one could cower behind a larger shield, but that was rendered ineffective in the 100years war with the manner in which the arrows were dropped in by using higher ballistic trajectories. This may not be applicable, but I wanted to ask 3 questions just to be a pain. :p

I think this will probably slow things down and it may discourage those who place alot of emphasis on a combat styled game, yet it might also make those who want to banzai their weaker characters actually try to play them, especially if the waiting period were extended or the limit of characters dropped (I am proposing neither, just analyzing). But if we truly are trying to build civilizations here in a society simulator, it may place more emphasis on the cooperative nature of building those communities up. It does take a simple system that emphasizes playability, if not necessarily balance and makes it more complicated with more things that could go wrong, but thats why trial periods exist, to work out bugs; and if our staff is willing to take on what appears at first to be a more complicated system its their prerogative imo.

Change is tough and at first blush I may not be totally sold on this, but I have sure seen alot of people complaining about the combat system in my short time here. So even if it is not exactly what some people may have wanted, we owe them a fair chance to implement this and should help them with *constructive* input. Its our game and we asked for a change, now that we are going to get it we probably shouldn't act shocked that we are being heard.

Be well

[Ronja Rotschopf]

Do I understand it corrrect that all passengers of a vehicle or ship would have to solve their fighting projects before it could continue the travel or the ship could be undocked?

If yes, this would be a huge problem when there are a few more characters on board, whose players aren't active at the same time. They would be trapped forever, because the attackers could always start new attacks on those who already solved their fighting projects before all of them solved it. While I don't see this as a problem when we talk about pirates or people who attack a town, it would be a problem for peaceful travellers - and again a disadvantage for not just the players who don't play 24/7 but also for those players who have characters together with their's

[EchoMan]

*nods* you spar then you want to go rest on a cot but you can;'t because the attacks are not resolved.

another instance.
you attack someone because you are a guard and they had hit the town leader, some other schmuck comes and steals things but you can;t do squatas they take off with an armload except wait for someone else to wake a pursue even though you are a totally awake guard at that moment.

Cancel the attack then.

[berserk9779]

the attacked char can do ANYTHING before resolving the attack?

it'll be weird if a char got his/her head chopped off by an axe while sleeping and had time to scream for help...

You don't get to choose what part of the body you are going to hit.
Also, in real life most people couldn't chop someone head off with one blow. It would take a very sharp battle axe and an expert fighter much stronger than average.

I welcome the change, but I have some doubts. As the game is now, if you stumble in a couple of thugs better equipped than you, you can always try to run. From now on, the strong will prevail more than before.

A little complement to this fighting system could be counterattacking:

The defender should automatically try to defend, dealing some damage back to the attacker.
The counterattack strength could be inversely proportional to the defender health, so an healthy character wouldn't expect an attack, and barely manage to counterattack. An injured character would be jumpy and cornered, dealing more damaged in return.

eg. Character A has 20 % health. He retaliates with 80% strength with his weapon
Character B has 90% health. He retaliates with 10% strength with his weapon

This has a few nice implications:
- giving the killing blow is dangerous business if the character is well armed. (killing for a reason, not just for the heck of it)
- Sleepers aren't just sitting duck
- melee weapons to retaliate melee and ranged to retaliate ranged (gives meaning to the subdivision between the two)

[Piscator]

One of the main intentions of the change is to allow a character to choose himself how to retaliate. If an attacker wants to do damage, he has to wait for the defender to wake up. This in turn means that the attacker is still physically present when the defender is awake, so that he can start a counterattack if he wishes to.

[wadko]

I didn't read the whole topic but I have a question.

Let's say that I'm a guard in a town, then there apears a newspawn, he steals some notes, some food and runs somewhere. I (the only guard not sleeping in that time) run after him and attack him (just to wound him). And now I have to wait 24h on the road, becouse the player of the thieft is an a-hole and he doesn't want to respond as fast as he could. And after that time I can go back to my town.

Is that how it will look after the new combat system?

[EchoMan]

In essence, yes. The time might not be 24 hours though. And there are other issues I'm not very happy about when it comes to fighting on roads.

[wadko]

Awsome.

Maybe the curent combat system isn't perfect but at least you can eliminate some a-holes note thiefs in just seconds. Or in 1 (one) hour if he runs on the road.

[*ono]

Wouldn't this cause an big atvantage for people with a better internet speed, when both players are online and the one with the better speed keeps attacking and so killing the other? Or is there a smaal time delay between attacks or an attack back button for the defender?

[Mars]

I have a question - what about the ugly new-spawn characters now, who stole the notes, resources and tools, and escaped from town? It happens often in a big cities like Vlotryan.

Did now the citizens must spend a full day at killing this odious newspawn? Now they need only 2-hours, but not 8 cantr hours or more like in this your suggestion!

If you want to change the game like this, you must also do something with this "nasty little thiefs".

If our game will be too difficult and too pesky for honest players, then they will found another, better game ...

[EchoMan]

Wouldn't this cause an big atvantage for people with a better internet speed, when both players are online and the one with the better speed keeps attacking and so killing the other? Or is there a smaal time delay between attacks or an attack back button for the defender?

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that the defender would like to resolve the attack and run away before being attacked again? If so, the attacking player would have to continuosly hit F5 to be able to get a new attack in. Or be extremely lucky. There is no way for the attacker to know when the defender is going to resolve the attack.

[EchoMan]

I have a question - what about the ugly new-spawn characters now, who stole the notes, resources and tools, and escaped from town? It happens often in a big cities like Vlotryan.

Did now the citizens must spend a full day at killing this odious newspawn? Now they need only 2-hours, but not 8 cantr hours or more like in this your suggestion!

If you want to change the game like this, you must also do something with this "nasty little thiefs".

If our game will be too difficult and too pesky for honest players, then they will found another, better game ...

3-4 posts above yours:

I didn't read the whole topic but I have a question.

Let's say that I'm a guard in a town, then there apears a newspawn, he steals some notes, some food and runs somewhere. I (the only guard not sleeping in that time) run after him and attack him (just to wound him). And now I have to wait 24h on the road, becouse the player of the thieft is an a-hole and he doesn't want to respond as fast as he could. And after that time I can go back to my town.

Is that how it will look after the new combat system?

In essence, yes. The time might not be 24 hours though. And there are other issues I'm not very happy about when it comes to fighting on roads.

[Joshuamonkey]

To be honest, I don't really see how just injuring a newspawn when he's running away if you're not planning on chasing them is an important consideration, since it serves virtually no purpose.
I do agree that the time delay can be a problem in certain situations, but it also makes it easier to kill runaways, because they can't move when the first person attacks, so anyone else in town who wakes up and decides to help attack can do so without worrying about the runaway being out of sight already. This makes sense in my opinion. They can then all start attacking the character. The case where it wouldn't be easier to kill runaways is when you have many active people who can hit them quickly. It would generally make it easier if one or two people are trying to kill the runaway, because if the runaway does see or resolve the combat sooner, then you can attack them again. I can definitely see why someone running away would like to stall though.

My main point is that the old system has lots of problems which the new system solves, even though the new system causes certain disadvantages. We just don't think about it as much because we're used to it.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Eugh...there is so much about this that I am not liking.



-A. Sparring

As previously addressed, many cultures thrive on sparring with one another to improve their strength. In the current system, the characters do not need to be online at the same time to accomplish this. They can do their daily reccommended 2-3 spars a day, and get on with work. When the other player, on the opposite side of the globe, wakes up, they can do their 2-3 spars, and go on with work. It allows players not in the same timezone to cooexist as a community. It also give characters who were not born expert fighters a remote hope of ever improving their fighting skill.

This change will shatter that. Instead of a system of sparring daily with characters that might not be awake at the same time, players will have to wait the 12 hours until the other player on the other side of the world wakes, and resolves the one combat. In doing so, it will make it nigh impossible for a character to -ever- improve their combat skill. This realization, when it dawns on the players, will cause even -more- newspawn troublemakers who, upon finding out their fighting skill is sub-par, will do everything they can to make a nuisance of themselves and get killed, so they can roll the skill dice on a new character.



-B. Dragging

As you are aware, the current system allows free-reign in dragging. It lets players drag themselves to the safety of their vehicles in hostile locations. It allows other players to move sleepers to hospitals, or on and off vehicles. It even allows players to maintain a lawful yet peaceful society by allowing guards and citizens to drag troublemakers into prison.

Now, if I am understanding this correctly, a player could make it impossible for their character to be dragged, at least for a day, by attacking a resident sleeper. Which would buy him time for, as mentioned, his friends to arrive and attack the town.



-C. Hit-and-Run, or, Guerrilla Warfare

Currently, players may attack in groups, on vehicles. A player may also use a building as cover, darting out to attack invaders, then retreating to the cover of their building.

As the new system is proposed, those are now impossible. "A good thing!" say many, remembering the nuclear bomb that was the recent massacre team, but stop and think for a minute. No longer would a team of guards from a city be able to attack and wipe out the slave camp in the nearby mountains. Neither would the lone resident of the town be able to keep himself safe in his stone fortress, darting out to attack the band of looters who are attempting to break the locks on his buildings.

Now, that lone defender would be stuck, standing and waiting outside, until the looter logs in, and responds. By that time, who knows whether the town defender would be online? Instead of freeing up his life to allow casual gameplay of Cantr, he must sit, waiting and watching...all day, on the chance that looter would log in, and thus allow him to either hide, or attack the next looter. In the meantime, lock breaking projects continue with the other two looters. The defender now must choose between initiating a second attack, and again waiting, or cancelling the attack, and hiding inside.

In short, the only way anyone could survive an encounter would be to use force of numbers. "Yes, wonderful! No more lone crazies hiding inside and attacking the town!", think some. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, hm? Those same tactics can, and are, used with good intent. This update will invalidate that.



-D. Ship Docking

Currently, you may undock whenever you like. Makes sense, no?

New update: If there is a combat initiated, the undocking is frozen.

Let's spin a scenario. Sailors A and B dock to a town, looking to trade. A is awake, while B has been sleeping for a while. Townies 1 and 2 are outside, and greet the travellers. A conversation happens, where it is mentioned that B has been sleeping for some time now.

1 then attacks B. A tries to undock and flee, but cannot, as there is a combat initiated on a person on board the ship, namely, Sailor B. Townie 2 can now run inside and inform Townies 3-6 that there's a ship to be had. While Townie 1 is stalling the undocking by attacking the sleeper, 2-6 are now free to come outside, kill off the awake and logged on (therefore responding) Sailor A.

Then, they concentrate their attacks on sleeping Sailor B, waiting for him to wake up and die, or simply die of sleeping sickness.

Voila, another ship to add to their collection, along with the contents of said ship, which contained kilo upon kilo of valuable resources. Unfortunately for the sailors, none of those kilos were healing food.




Now, I realize the current combat system is broken. It is far from perfect. And I know that those who have thought up this new system are very proud, and a bit defensive, of their idea. But there are just too many new problems created by it, in an effort to solve the current problems. The issues aren't being solved; they're just getting shuffled about.

I'm not trying to be negative. I'm trying to point out the flaws before this goes live. Because if I can think of it in just ten short minutes, you better believe the craftier gamers on here will try it.

[Joshuamonkey]

Instead of a system of sparring daily with characters that might not be awake at the same time, players will have to wait the 12 hours until the other player on the other side of the world wakes, and resolves the one combat. In doing so, it will make it nigh impossible for a character to -ever- improve their combat skill.

Please understand that waiting 12 hours, up to 24 hours, will never be longer than the 24 hour attack limit currently. If they do resolve the combat in 12 hours, then you will be able to attack them again, which means you can increase your skill faster. And, the attacker will be able to keep working on projects. If both characters are very active, then you can both attack each other many times per day, so there's your skill increase.

Now, if I am understanding this correctly, a player could make it impossible for their character to be dragged, at least for a day, by attacking a resident sleeper. Which would buy him time for, as mentioned, his friends to arrive and attack the town.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that characters should be able to initiate dragging on characters in combat. Dragging will have to be worked out, yes.

-C. Hit-and-Run, or, Guerrilla Warfare

You're right that that's how things would turn out in the new system, and that's how it should be. We're not going to cancel the update because there may be other problems; we'll just have to figure out what those problems are.

-D. Ship Docking

That's an interesting scenario, but considering the fact that they could always just gather the friends before attacking, and in the current system they could kill the two sailors instantly, this isn't really helping your argument.
In the new system, those being attacked will be able to attack back, as opposed to just being killed with no real combat.