Essential and Critical changes to Combat System

[Cogliostro]

Can anyone think of how to do what Doug suggests (even a simple version of it), but without introducing new interface elements, especially avoiding "modal" ones where you have to "make a selection" until you get to do anything else as this character?

[Piscator]

I thought I did just that. If someone attacks you, you get an event message that you are challenged/being attacked/whatever. If you move without answering the challenge (or after a day) the attacker(s) strike(s). To answer the challenge, you enter the attack menu just as you are used to, make your selections and attack. Then the outcome of the "clash" is calculated. After that, you can heal up or make whatever preperation you think is necessary and answer the next challenge. Or you can run away if you feel overpowered, in which case outstanding challengers get a swing at you (perhaps with an increased chance too miss, relying on your "evade" skill form Doug's draft).

[BZR]

perhaps with an increased chance too miss

Decreased, you wanted to say. Imagine - you are intending to hit someone and that person turns his back and run away - is he harder to hit than a person who carefully watches your moves, being ready to defend and strike back?

[Piscator]

I meant what I say. If somebody decides to run, he doesn't wait for the attacker to be close enough to hit him. The attacker might not even get a chance to strike. And, more importantly, if running away had only disadvantages, it would be no sensible option.

[BZR]

So where is the element of surprise? The attackers would atack you anyway in the current system, you would just run away when you log in - after attacking.

[Piscator]

I don't think I get what you mean.

[BZR]

nvm

[Doug R.]

He means that this system would eliminate surprise attacks entirely, which is a valid point. Ambushes are a common element in almost all games with come kind of combat. Do I think that pirates should be able to swarm in and hit a town like they can now? No. However, do I think that the townspeople should be able to lie in wait for the pirates and attack them when they enter without a chance to run? Yes.

At it's simplest, a character in a location that another just enters should be able to make a surprise attack on the entering character, if it's done within a reasonable amount of time after the other character enters.

[Piscator]

Well, we could have some kind of penalty for people who are attacked while working on projects (people who are surprised by the attack), but I think we can very well live without sneak attack rules for now, especially if you consider that ambushes aren't possible with the current rules set either. Being able to have a fair fight outweighs the disadvantage of not being able to have a unfair one, at least until we have an idea of how to do that conclusively. Any rule that depends on quick reactions on the player's side (even if we are talking about hours) would pretty much defeat the purpose of the suggestion.

If it turns out to be absolutely necessary, we can still come up with rules to handle stealth, cover and initiative later.

[Cogliostro]

I've been thinking it over, and I may have an idea how to keep the ambushes and simplify the entire thing some more- in the suggested system we have this element where the other party has to log in before the combat plays out, so the idea is, what if instead of codifying what someone under attack can or can't do (running away etc.), what if we just made all pending attacks "happen" whenever a player clicks that smileyface for that character to look at events... this way ambushes are still possible, and there is no need for auto-selfdefence checkboxes either - the defending character/player can respond as they see fit, because it was them that just logged in, not the attacker.

The scenario, for clarity:

John the town leader is under attack by two pirates on a longboat.
Pirate1 and Pirate2 select to attack John. Their attacks are now "pending", we're automatically waiting for 1 day (or whatever) to give John a chance to log in. Pirate1 and 2 have to stay where they are while this is happening, otherwise (if they choose to undock for instance) their attack is cancelled and John is unhurt.
Suppose the pirates elect to wait, they want John dead. John's player logs in a couple hours later, and at the very top of his char's events he sees the two hits happening against him. Bam, bam! He's all hurt, and runs away to his safehouse to use healfood.
John applies what healfoods he can, pops back out and attacks the pirates. Bam, bam!
Now we're waiting for the pirate players to log in, to apply the pending attacks from John.
Pirate2 happens to open his char's events soon after, is badly hurt by John's claymore, and figures the two of them bit off more than they can chew, so he undocks. Pirate1, his pal, remains unhurt as they escape.

What do you think?

[Polt86]

I like Cogliostro's idea, at least the way it is explained by the scenario.

Two problems I have with the idea as it was presented:

1) Is it possible for the attacker "queue up" attacks on multiple targets? And if it is, what happens with regard to order, effectiveness, etc. of the attacks?

2) This can lead to CRB violations on the part of the defenders. For example:

Character A gets attacked, and is logged off.
Character B wakes up and notices that A is getting attacked.
Player B knows Player A in some OOC way, and lets him know so that he can stay asleep as long as possible.
This allows all the other players in the area time to log in and attack/drag the attacker before the attack actually takes place.

A similar situation can and probably does occur within the current combat system as well, but if you are redoing the entire system, you should probably eliminate as many potential problems as are known.

[Miri]

Also it would make even hitting a sleeper impossible, not mentioning killing them

NO for such change. Too much illogical 'if's to even mention them.

[YugoStrikesBack]

Look, I don't care what you guys think up, the fact of the matter is, I have the ability to kill anyone, anywhere, anytime.

You think the Seatown Hills massacre, which oh by the way was the deadliest day in Cantr history, just "happened"?

There are exploits in any system and any reform you make will simply be exploited once again. Leave it as is and try not to piss me off.

[Piscator]

Also it would make even hitting a sleeper impossible, not mentioning killing them

No, it wouldn't. It would take you exactly one day longer to kill a sleeper. That's all.


Colgliostro's idea has the problem that three guys with good weapons could probably kill a person without this person being able to react. Person logs in, gets hit for 35% of damage three times and gets the "you can't play a dead character" message when he tries to make his first move. That's why I suggested that attacks should be handled one after another.

[Doug R.]

Interesting thought process, but Piscator's right that it doesn't solve the insta-death problem. It also completely eliminates dragging as a weapon, which may or may not be an intended side-effect of the suggestion.