Thought or Rant of the day!!!

[Mr. Black]

Yeah, the second line I agree with, but hey, I'M an atheist! Actually, I'm really a Buddhist, but I act like an atheist in public. But , seriously, what do you have against atheists?

[SekoETC]

No joo, I'm not atheist. I just tend to stay out of religious conversations because no one is going to change their way of thinking based on something that's said on forums.

I suppose most of my friends are atheists but they don't call me stupid for believing in Jesus. It saddens or angers me when people say such things as:

• adults with imaginary friends are stupid
• the Bible is a book of fairy tales
• the Bible has so many errors that there's reason to believe it's completely false
• Christianity is a bad thing because of the Crusades, and Catholic priests who molest school boys

My counter-arguments:

• If a person is living under awful circumstances and has no way of fixing things, has no friends or contacts who can help, if this person gets comfort in knowing/imagining that (s)he is not alone and someone cares about her, does it really matter if it happens to be a lie? Would you rather live under awful circumstances knowing that it's only going to get worse and the only release is to cease to exist, or to think that someone loves you and if you die, all the suffering and sadness is going to be wiped away and you'll continue your existance surrounded by love and comfort? If there is no afterlife, the person won't have a chance to regret living one life assuming that things are going to get better.
• Some stuff may have been dramatized or affected by the limited understanding/knowledge of the writers but I believe the main points are true. Why would people go write a huge bunch of imaginary history and include loads of embarrassing details, such as people constantly failing to follow God's commands and ending up in trouble over it? If it was all made up, it would be likely to describe only heroic deeds. Why would a bunch of people claim that some carpenter's son rose from the dead and be willing to die over it if it weren't true? Why wouldn't the Romans tell everyone that these crazy people are lying and there never was a Jesus of Nazareth or that he was killed and his tomb is right over there - unless the tomb was empty? The only possible solution would be that the New Testament was written decades later than is suspected and there was a major conspiracy to lead people astray. For what reason? And how could the founders stand behind their story and silence all the people saying "that's not what happened" if they knew it was made up?
• There are mistranslations and copying errors and sometimes people simply assume something is false just because they don't have enough knowledge of the age during which the books were written. People cling on to all sorts of minor details, ignoring the big picture.
• Ideologies are not bad in themselves, but people may misinterpret them or twist them to serve their own goals. The Bible does not support celibacy for priests. In fact in the beginning there were no priests in the early Christian church. The celibacy thing was developed later on when the church was gaining riches and it was feared that if priests had heirs, the possessions of the church would be inherited by those heirs. Because the church was greedy, they developed a system that would ensure the money stays in possession of the church. Anyway, because Catholic priests are forced to celibacy, they may fulfill their sexual urges with children because they don't have a wife. The Bible says that it's no good to be alone and if a person can't stand celibacy then they should get married. The Crucades may have been necessary for spreading Christian faith to regions that wouldn't have been influenced by it otherwise but they were also a bad thing because it gives the future generations a reason to say that the church is evil because it forced people to convert or be killed. Thus many people are turning away from Christianity.

[Piscator]

Well, I try to avoid conversations about religious topics too. As you said, people won't change their believes because of anything I say or they would have done it long ago. Religious discussions are largely futile and the only thing you will achieve is that people will feel frustrated and angry afterwards. So I decided that I try not to care in what exactly people believe as long as they act decent.

As for the first counter argument, I agree that those believes are comforting, but I think we should strive to make them unnecessary. No one should have to wait for the afterlife to feel a little happiness. I don't believe there is a god, but I think his work needs to be done.

[Mr. Black]

Hmm, I'm gonna have to agree with you there, Seko. People who write that kinda thing are just assholes, and there's not much more you can say for them. But, by your own reasoning, don't judge the whole by the actions of a few. There are good atheists out there. And remember, the only thing an atheist has to trust in is people, so he'd better be pretty damn polite to you when you mention that.

[chase02]

I'd like to think I'm a "good atheist" or I don't say hurtful things for fun, generally.

But then, I'm an ex-christian (brought up that way by parents) who made the choice to be atheist, so maybe a little more understanding. Meh.

Agreed. Religious discussions are dangerous territory.

[wichita]

Science is a religion too.

[LolSarah]

Snip?

[LolSarah]

I tend to go with "Let anyone believe what they want, as long as they don't push it on me." way of thinking.
It's worked so far.

Why rain on someone elses parade if they're happy the way they are?

[Dudel]

I tend to go with "Let anyone believe what they want, as long as they don't push it on me." way of thinking.
It's worked so far.

Why rain on someone elses parade if they're happy the way they are?

I don't care what you do. Just keep it off my lawn!

[Gran]

Well, I've a kind of related rant. I'm an atheist and most of people I know believe in some sort of god. I don't really care, I'm not going to push my ideas on the matter to someone who is not open to it. But there is some people that think that just because I'm an atheist I have no ethics and I am a monster who eats little babbies.

[SekoETC]

The sad truth about the world is that even if you personally aimed to make it a better place, there will be tons of others who only look after their own interests and don't care about the people who are too poor, sick, old or otherwise unfortunate not to be able to help themselves. Although according to the laws of nature, the misfit individuals should die away, but mercy is one thing that separates humans from the animals. (Although some animals are also capable of compassion, I saw a video of a dog that dragged another dog across a multi-lane highway after it had been injured.)

A single person cannot change the world but people shouldn't be discouraged by this knowledge. People can make a difference in small things. But if a person has personal problems then (s)he should help oneself first, or (s)he might get ill or die and not be able to do it anymore. In an airplane I saw these instructions that say "put on your own breathing mask before helping others". There's an instruction that should be extended to other areas of life. Help yourself and if you are helping other people, encourage them to do as much as they can and not get enveloped in their illness or disabilities. I've received support and I know from personal experience that it can make a person lazy and lose the ability to take initiative. When I heard that my support was ending, I said very childishly, "I'm not going to do anything, if you leave it up to me then I'll just leave things hanging. You'll have to handle everything for me." And my support person said, "I won't do everything for you. You're going to do as much as you can and I'll be there to help you and support you when you need it but you need to do your own share." I felt a bit embarrassed but I knew he made sense. Then I was able to handle quitting school all by myself and also did my part in other issues.

[*Wiro]

A single person cannot change the world

Lies. One single person is enough to change the world. Little steps become bigger ones as time passes.

I agree with you about atheists being disrespectful, and I won't deny that I have said disrespectful things about religion in the past. But I've learnt that that's not a smart thing to do.

What I hate about religions though, is that a lot of people read the bible the wrong way so they misinterpret a lot of things. Oh, and there's the part about same-sex relationships. Nowhere in the bible does it directly say "Same-sex relationships are bad. All people who sin like this must die." (it does say that in the Jewish book, or one of the others), but people want to read it like that. I asked some christian person who was like that "What would you do if you find out you're gay?" and he replied "Ignore it."

It also bothers me there are people who go "If you don't believe in God, you go to hell!"

Now really, if there's REALLY a god - would he judge me like that? Would not believing in him be enough of a reason to send me to hell? Even if I live my life right? If that's true, then I don't even WANT to believe in God.

Note, I'm not saying every religious person is like that. Just like I don't want others to say "All atheists are bad."
I know you (Seko) were a little pissed off/angry at that moment so I'll ignore it for now.

[SekoETC]

I never claimed all atheists are bad.

The New Testament says pretty clearly that there is no place in the Kingdom of Heaven for men who sleep with men. Although what I think is that back in that time there was no such thing as an equal relationship between two men, just like there was no such thing as an equal relationship between a man and a woman. In the Middle East even nowadays the person who inserts his penis into any orifice of another person is considered superior to the person in the receiving end. So it is and was unimaginable that a gay couple could take turns in giving and receiving, or that they could abstain from anal sex and just fondle each other. Also back then there were no showers or toilet paper or condoms so buttsecks would always be dirty and pose a health risk to the person in the receiving end.

Also scaring people with hell feels outlandish and how could people burn if they have no bodies? So I keep thinking that hell must be an emotional state of knowing that there is a God and you can never be in His presense, also being conscious of all the bad things you've done in your life. But if the book of Revelation talks about Satan being cast in a fiery lake and all his followers being cast there with him, it's difficult to think how that could be toned down, even if it was symbolic.

[*Wiro]

Sorry, misread that part.

I think that health and stuff like that was indeed one of the reasons it used to be dangerous for your health and just bad and wrong.
Probably also relationships between old men and young boys.
But I fail to understand that something that would be God's creation (I mean, who else made homosexuality? Satan?) could be bad.

I've always thought of hell - if it exists - as some place where you would learn of your mistakes through the pain you've caused others.
Once you've learnt of your mistakes you would be allowed to go to heaven.

And on another forum (a Dutch forum) I just got told that there's no reason for me to be allowed to go to heaven, and that that's what he thinks because that's what he's supposed to say because of his religion.
I gave up discussing there now though. My words keep being flipped around ten or more times so it wouldn't make sense, and one page later I am supposed to stop discussing because I am not making sense.

Bah. Anyway, I think it's time for a happier subject. Anyone got a happy thought? I can't think of one at the moment, to be honest. But I'd love to hear something positive...

[joo]

Bah. Anyway, I think it's time for a happier subject. Anyone got a happy thought? I can't think of one at the moment, to be honest. But I'd love to hear something positive...

Even if I believe that I will stop existing after my death, I will at least live happily believing that if all my immoral behaviour remains undetected, I will never have to suffer for it. How about that?