How Disapointing, Cantr Fails in a BIG way

[marol]

Because I know a bit about computers, I may be able to solve the lag problem at least.

Oh and I can't hack the server without the IP address.

IP address is the easiest thing to find out... how small is your bit of knowledge?

[NaruShadow]

Not small persay. My dad works exclusively with computers and servers. Building, programming, debugging, the works. He teaches me how to do it. If I can't help you myself, I could probably get the answer from him. I applied to join the resources dept. but no one has replied to me yet. I was thinking of the ProgD as well because I want to take programming courses in school.

[Cdls]

I know some people who are pretty good at programming, and they might be interested in some side work. Jos, if you are interested I can get the word out and have a few people email or PM you. Let me know



Oh, and on that same note, I would definitely throw some money towards getting a programmer to help out.

[NaruShadow]

If I had any spare money I'd gladly donate it. Sadly all my money goes towards fuel, food and school atm.

[SekoETC]

I know a person who says they applied like three times or so and no reply. Or actually there are several people who won't get even as much as "Hi, we've received your application and are in process of evaluating it". Anyway, this first person is a damn good programmer, does it for living, but your lack of communications has driven him away.

[Xanalsir]

It looks like the reason behind the lack of staff on Cantr is an incapability to accept good applications, not a lack of willing volunteers. That is Cantr failing in a big way. The lag? Not so much.

[psymann]

And the fact that they want applications as if it's some sort of job you're applying for.

I can understand it a little more for someone that's going to end up fiddling with code, but for people who are just going to design some new items or suggest ways to balance out resources etc, it seems silly that people who volunteer to help are told to go away and fill out an application form.

It certainly put me off wanting to help - I said I could help the resource dept if they wanted the help, and was told to go away and fill out an application form, which I took to mean that they really weren't that bothered, and they were almost doing me a favour offering me a volunteer post which I had to apply for.

The impression I get is that Cantr now has one active coder, so should welcome people who can help out. Making this application process sound more inviting, and making it easier - like a quick e-mail to make sure that the person is keen to help and has some vague idea what they're doing before you let them make changes - might help.

If someone's keen to help, why not e-mail them a section of the code, and give them a chance to improve on it. Then, if you like it, it can be added in, and if you don't, it can be rejected. But that way, there's no application needed. Just make some of the code semi-public and let people attempt to do something with it. Not sure how possible that would be.

psymann

[Jos Elkink]

To be honest, this has been a problem for Cantr for as long as I remember and has been the subject of many GAC discussions - to no fruitful results. Concerning ProgD, that is - I'm not talking about RD applications.

The problem is: before someone can help out seriously with either the database or the source code, the person needs substantial (reading) access. If I were to meet someone in person, I feel I can quite quickly judge whether it appears a trustworthy person or not - online, this is much, much harder. So how do we get to know them? The best is to work with them for a while to get to know them, before granting substantial access. But that means working for a while on really mundane, not so important side issues that can be handled without substantial access. This seriously discourages any new programmer, and it also takes too much time for ProgD to guide these projects.

So it really feels like a catch-22: for serious help on Cantr code you need very substantial access; for substantial access you need to be trusted, which needs that we need to see you work on some serious code ...

And closely tied with it is the fact that any initial period in ProgD, whether with or without substantial access rights, requires guidance and time from ProgD, which is exactly what it doesn't have.

E.g., without naming names, right now I have an email in my inbox from someone saying that he/she knows a lot about databases and can seriously help out if I just give him full reading access to the database. Full reading access means that he/she can see *everything* in the game. I don't know this guy at all. So what am I to do? Say that I cannot trust him directly, which means no help on the DB; say that we first need to get to know each other well? but how? And I absolutely don't have any time whatsoever at the moment to devote to this.

I'm putting this all in the open, since the debate itself is no secret, and it is a situation that I really have never seen a solution to, which is very, very frustrating, especially while seeing Cantr slowly dying. I know that one serious solution would be for me to invest substantial time into Cantr, but I am not exaggerating when I say that that will probably cost me my job, with all consequences to my life ... so there is no way I am going to do that.

[Tiamo]

I think here the test environment comes into the picture. In a test environment programmers will have no access to the actual database or software, only to copies of those elsewhere (with the database only containing test data, no real game data).
ProgD applicants can learn freely in this environment (no guidance needed for the learning process, reading access only), and in a second phase play around with the test software (some guidance will be needed here, and update access to the test software, not the DB) without compromising the game itself. Depending on the software structure you could even cut this environment into several independent pieces (maybe separating the various independently running processes). Worst case is that an applicant could spread his knowledge about the game mechanics and database structure, and lets players use this knowledge. I don't think that is a real disaster, since most of the formulas are on Wiki anyway.

If you don't trust anyone even at this level i think the problem is unsolvable.

Edit: setting up systematic software documentation could also help, not only in limiting access to the actual software and speeding up the learning process, but also in structuring the design and maintenance process itself.

[jexter]

I know a person who says they applied like three times or so and no reply. Or actually there are several people who won't get even as much as "Hi, we've received your application and are in process of evaluating it". Anyway, this first person is a damn good programmer, does it for living, but your lack of communications has driven him away.

Yes, I have had this experience too. I volunteered for the Players Dept and had no reply... well I just thought they didn't need any...
And I know some persons who didn't get any reply too. Come on people! Just write something back - if you don't need any more personel into that Dept. just say so, or if you are thinking taking him/her - say it!

I begin to think that the application forms don't work quite well, a? Maybe you don't get them? The same with reporting - no answer if we send through ingame. It's really faster to do that in the forums.

By the way - if the application system is broken, maybe just open a new forum thread, where people could fill in the form in forum - it would be faster and maybe some would be encouraged to volunteer too.

--Sorry for the offtopic--

[Missy]

The application proccess is not broke. Many times, there is just mere indecision about whether to hire a person or not. Other times, the personel department has fallen severely behind which obviously poses a large problem. Of course applying to the Personel isn't going to solve the problem if the current personel isn't terribly active due to their real lives. Of course, being on personel requires a deal of trust as well, like other departments.


Since we fall upon strange times---To those of you who have applied and received no response, please send me a PM detailing what position you applied for and your name so I can identify your application and I will ~try~ to help the Personel/you out for the time being.

[Jos Elkink]

Does the application system not make use of the Personnel mailinglist? The mailinglists are down, so the application system might actually be broken ... the last few weeks, that is, not the last few years ... Other than that, I am fairly happy with how the application procedure works, if only it worked faster. Too many applications are pending for too long - but it's just, again, a matter of finding the time to handle all of it.

I think here the test environment comes into the picture.

Haha, that's kind of funny ... Neither when reading the guys email, nor when writing the post above, I thought about the test environment. Of course we have one and full DB access would probably not be problematic there, except that in the test env. it is harder to see what tables are big / overburdened and which are not. But yeah, good point ...

The code is still a problem, but it is a smaller one. The only problems would be bugs or insecure code that could be abused by a new programmer in the game - instead of fixing it. But this is far, far less problematic than DB access.

Of course, all this still requires some time from more experienced ProgD members.

If you don't trust anyone even at this level i think the problem is unsolvable.

Oh, it's not that I don't trust anyone at all, it is just that it takes some time to get to know someone to be able to trust the person. And even then you're sometimes mistaken, but that's a risk we need to take.

Edit: setting up systematic software documentation could also help, not only in limiting access to the actual software and speeding up the learning process, but also in structuring the design and maintenance process itself.

Definitely - but it certainly doesn't fix the lack of time issue ...

[Doug R.]

I'm putting this all in the open, since the debate itself is no secret, and it is a situation that I really have never seen a solution to, which is very, very frustrating, especially while seeing Cantr slowly dying.

Jos,

May I suggest a leap of faith?

-Ask if the applicant in question minds if his identity is made public.

-If they don't, then post it, and let people vouch for them or tell you what a creep they are (preferably offlist)

-If they do, beware and say no thanks.

-Back up the entire game. Everything. Save it in a place only you have access to.

-Take the leap and give this person full access. If they destroy the game, you have the backup. If they work out, then things are looking bright.

[Jos Elkink]

-Ask if the applicant in question minds if his identity is made public.

I like that suggestion

I'm also working on another solution that I like even more, but discussing it in GAC before making anything public.

-Back up the entire game. Everything. Save it in a place only you have access to.

-Take the leap and give this person full access. If they destroy the game, you have the backup. If they work out, then things are looking bright.

I don't think backups are the solution to this problem. We are talking reading access here, not writing access - it's not the worry about destruction of the game, but worry about people abusing confidential information when playing the game or publishing it on public sites.

[Solfius]

is it not possible in MySQL to set access for specific tables in the database?

It may be possible to only allow access to specific tables depending on what the aspirant is doing, more time consuming, but allows you to grant partial access until they are proven