What can God never see?

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Lyd
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Postby Lyd » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:46 am

Amen Cantr Freak
:D

I will give you the benefit of my years of teaching 5th grade catholic catechism:

The bible was written by men inspired by God.

Genesis is a creation story and poem...meaning there are actually two creation myths in the book of Genesis.

The points in Genesis to remember are:
1) There is but one God. God is good.
2.) Everything comes into being and continues to exist because of God's creative action.
3)God created humans in god's own image.

The original texts of the bible were written in Greek then translated over and over again.

So who can really say what was written originally?

And who says God can't appear in the form of a monkey if he chooses?

:P
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Postby CantrFreak » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:17 am

... :roll: Who believes evolutionism here? *raises his hand* I am willing to accept that the Bible was created as a story in order to prove a point and some of it based on fact and exagerated, but much being mostly just made up.
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Postby Jos Elkink » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:25 am

I don't "believe" in evolution ... I just think it's the currently least refuted scientific theory of the origin of mankind ... So I take it for true, for now ...
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Postby Zanthos » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:37 pm

just gona go out on a limb and say maybe evolution is caused by god :wink:

though, i already know who will disagree with this statement. What it boils down to is that people of faith have their faith, and people without do not.

My roommate was telling me a story last night about a problem his dog was having over easter break last year. He came home, to find it completly unable to move behind the front legs, and the vet said it probably wouldnt live past the weekend (~98% chance of death by sunday, if not def within the week). So he prayed for it that night, seriously prayed, and lo and behold the dog made an incredible recovery and somehow healed itself over the course of the weekend, and is still going strong today.

Now did his praying help? perhaps, people of faith will say yes, while people without it will say no. I personally believe it does, I have seen the power of prayer in action, and even if i dont consider myself the most religious, or even someone who does a good job following the basic rules of my religion, i still believe in god. Do I accept evolution? yes, do I believe that god created earth and placed adam and eve in a garden of eden? nobody was there, so who knows? the answer is probably not.

Thats all I'll say on the topic.
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Postby Voltenion » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:41 pm

CantrFreak wrote:I thought the Church wrote the Bible? In that case I'm sure'd theyed omit things not useful to them. Church chose the books of the new testament or what ever you guys call it in English. Many people wrote things that happened those days, they chosed the ones who knew where right and didn't disagree with things from the others...Before they went corrupt, the bible was kinda fixed already. Like Lyd said, the old testament was writen by men inspired by God.

By the way, I am Hindu, at least, due to my lineage. xD Elephant-headed god with many arms? roflz. Close but not close exactly. The elephant kid isn't even a main god. I doubt we create three of our gods too. I mean, we may since we're like an uber-old religion, one of the oldest in the world. We have way more than just three "mainstream" ones. Way... more. Really? I see, sorry then. I thought it was because it's the only one I know *shrugs* And I saw it once on Simpsons :lol: ... And I was pretty sure about the 'everyone can create his own gods' thing. But I might be wrong, doubt it though...Maybe the guy who told me about it lied to me, but he had no reason... If you are hindu then you have probably more trustfull people to ask about this things, :) do it and tell me what you found out? I'm curious about this...

But urm... people originated in -Africa-. Wouldn't it make sense Adam and Eve, if they existed, where african in color? Well, since the Church glorified slaverly back then thats maybe why they could have been omitted if they existed... but also, 2 people started the entire world? The evolutionist theory might be good for those that believe in creationism. xD
Like I said, they probably where black... And yes church accepted slavery when they became corrupt. But there's nothing in the bible refering that Adam was white or black, so I don't get what you meant

Religion in my opinion (like Christianity, and others) were made to explain the universe back then when knowledge was limited. We ourselves claim the Greek religion was made to explain, why can't ours then?'Religion' was made to explain such things, yes. But I'm not religious. Religion is washing your hands 5 times before you go in the mighty church of the lord :roll: That's religion... It's what people don't get. They are all supersticious and don't get what matters.... And the bible has nothing that'd help a nation on any kind by having their people read it. People would be good, but that didn't matter for them... It's a little curious and strange that in all our knowledge and all we know about the world and knowing that religons where made just to explain wicked things, a religon keeps increasing and getting stronger and stronger day by day. Strange that people's life still suffer unbelievable things arround this group of people that are just "living in the past". Strange that I'm alive when I could be breathing by a machine, without a father(such a strange thing he was healed of a permanent disease...) and a mother... Oh, well, just a bunch of coincidences... Go big bang! --" If you don't want believe because of little facts, go ahead and don't. I'm not here to drag you to believe in anything... I think Big bang is stupid, you think gods are stupid. It's ok. What's wrong is trying to kill the only thing that holds this world. Face it, without religion the renassaince(?) would never have happened. Without religion those kids who thaught not to lie, kill, steal and such would do all those things... We'd lose civilization. Whatever you say, nothing makes people do good things unless they where taught to. And no one teaches such a thing...Parents nowadays teach kids to cheat and study hard and do whatever they can to be better than the other kids so that they can have money and be happy! World needs religion, there's no other way people will know how to act.


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Postby DylPickle » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:38 am

I'll say right away that I fall in line right beside HF on the topic of religion, and find it incredibly difficult to understand how such a vast majority of people can base their entire lives around a series of stories that simply replicate older stories that we now consider mythological folklore.

If I were to build a great wooden lodge and preach that heroes in death would be escorted by the Valkyries to Valhalla up in one of the levels of the cosmos to eternally prepare for war against the giants... well... everyone would laugh at me, because it's ridiculous. (Except, perhaps, for BarbaricAvatar ;) jk jk)

My main beef nowadays is this obsession with "Jesus Christ". Jesus exists, but only as a character in a book. And that book was written by men in the interest of men. Would someone mind telling me how historians such as Plutarch, who were already practicing systematic and written history, could have missed all this commotion a few days sail to the East? It never happened.
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Postby Voltenion » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:35 pm

:? I've heard many things about Jesus... Like that he was just a great man, or that he was a liar, and even that he was a lunatic... But that he didn't exist? It has been proved he did.

How would hundreds of people "create" a story about a guy who didn't exist, and all of them managed to make the story equal to their neighbour? Coincidence? Why did a gigantic empire accepted a completly new religion 'created' by a man who didn't exist? It did happen.
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Postby Piscator » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:56 pm

Equal stories? As far as I'm informed there are already four different versions in the bible.

And don't forget that there are a quite a lot of stories about unicorns, UFOs and Bigfoot around, so that's not neccessarily a proof for anything. Personally I don't doubt the existence of Jesus. I just think that the stories about him are strongly exaggerated and that he'd probably laugh about some of them if he had the chance to read them.
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Postby formerly known as hf » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:44 pm

Voltenion wrote::? I've heard many things about Jesus... Like that he was just a great man, or that he was a liar, and even that he was a lunatic... But that he didn't exist? It has been proved he did.

How would hundreds of people "create" a story about a guy who didn't exist, and all of them managed to make the story equal to their neighbour? Coincidence? Why did a gigantic empire accepted a completly new religion 'created' by a man who didn't exist? It did happen.
I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't hold. Something similar could be said in regards to the Egyptian Gods. How comes thousands upon thousands drew depictions of Osiris, Apis, Ra and the rest of 'em and it not be true? All these people, spanning wide areas came up with the same stories. All carved in stone. It must be true?

Basically, pretty much the same could be said for pretty much any religion with a substantial textual record behind it. Or even Harry Potter. Just 'cos it's recorded, and even though those records seem accurate and complimentary (depsite the likelyhood of their later adaptation to seem so) doesn't mean it's true.

Personally, I'm happy to concede the potential (and not all that unlikely) existence of a figure who became known as the Jesus of the New Testament, and the Koran. For the same reason I'm happy to concede the existence of Buddha. Or even Odysseus. Firstly, most well-known and established mythologies are likely to have some basis, secondly, there's often enough recorded evidence otherwise.

However, this certainly doesn't then conclude that Jesus was the son of God and a miracle worker. The same way Odysseus was unlikely the killer of a cyclops and survivor of the sirens.

On another note, I'm prepared to concede that Jesus Christ, and even 'God' are real. In the same way that Ra, Osiris, Zeus, Thor, Shiva and the Shinto spirits (and Harry Potter) are real. Though they may be socio-cultural constructs, their varied importance and significance for the everyday lives of adherents and non-believers is such that despite their highly doubtful objective reality, the social ramifications are such that they certainly have real effects on people's lives, and are powerful lay-and-institutional tools in networks of power. They are most certainly real in that sense.

In fact, I'm much more concerned about challenging this reality than appealing to rationalist ideals of objective knowledge. As such appeals mean little to the faithful, and I stand by critiques of positivism and the scientific method (that being said, although scientific knowledge is certainly socially constructed, I'm not prepared to accept the relativity of all forms of knowledge, and would contend that, despite the valid criticisms, scientific attempts at rational and objective knowledge production are the best forms of generating knowledge of the physical world that we have).

As such, I would much rather critique the various institutions and common-knowledges of religion which serve to variously indoctrinate young people, maintain unbalanced and unequal hierarchies of power, entrench and exacerbate various uneven topologies of gender, sexual and racial relations, encourage xenophobic and otherwise divisive international Otherings, are mobilised for atrocities such as war, torture and persecution in many forms, and fosters potentially very dangerous ignorance and uncritical acceptance of authority.

But, anyway, I digress.
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Postby Gran » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:32 am

As far as I am concerned, myth was born to explain the reality, give it sense, for people felt need for such to live in order.

With time, myth gave birth to religion, which served for the same purpose.

But, as religion gradually failed to explain the constitution of the matter and things, the knowlegedge began to separate from it, creationg Philosophy and later all the sciences.

Mithology may have some true part sometimes, like the King Midas, who would turn everything in gold with the touch of his hand.This may look fancy, but there was a King Midas, king of a reagion of Greece which was very rich in gold.In the tale, Midas give up his gold touch after turning his daughter in a golden statue.That could represent have caused raids by armies looking for that wealth, or other great destruction caused by the gold mines control.

But, as you see before, there is a lot of difference between the tale and history.

In the time of Jesus, for example, it is known that there was a lot of resistance against the roman governament, and from time to time, leaders popped from the jewish masses to rally them against the romans, or to try to unify them politicaly...or spiritually.Jesus could have been one of a bunch of them.

I know the faithfull may disagree, because it hurts their faith.But I would like to ask for you to use arguments with some basis that not especulation or just because it visually makes sense...Aristotles thought everything was made of fire, water, air and earth.He never proved it, but his arguments made(without basis) sense.

I also leave these videos here, I like them very much:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRvt0InhYk
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=OHiyMOqWNbE&feature=user
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buddyhall
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Postby buddyhall » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:21 pm

Yes I'm pretty sure that jesus's existance was documented by the Romans if nobody else.(lol)
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buddyhall
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Postby buddyhall » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:52 pm

formerly known as hf wrote:
Voltenion wrote::? I've heard many things about Jesus... Like that he was just a great man, or that he was a liar, and even that he was a lunatic... But that he didn't exist? It has been proved he did.

How would hundreds of people "create" a story about a guy who didn't exist, and all of them managed to make the story equal to their neighbour? Coincidence? Why did a gigantic empire accepted a completly new religion 'created' by a man who didn't exist? It did happen.
I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't hold. Something similar could be said in regards to the Egyptian Gods. How comes thousands upon thousands drew depictions of Osiris, Apis, Ra and the rest of 'em and it not be true? All these people, spanning wide areas came up with the same stories. All carved in stone. It must be true?

Basically, pretty much the same could be said for pretty much any religion with a substantial textual record behind it. Or even Harry Potter. Just 'cos it's recorded, and even though those records seem accurate and complimentary (depsite the likelyhood of their later adaptation to seem so) doesn't mean it's true.

Personally, I'm happy to concede the potential (and not all that unlikely) existence of a figure who became known as the Jesus of the New Testament, and the Koran. For the same reason I'm happy to concede the existence of Buddha. Or even Odysseus. Firstly, most well-known and established mythologies are likely to have some basis, secondly, there's often enough recorded evidence otherwise.

However, this certainly doesn't then conclude that Jesus was the son of God and a miracle worker. The same way Odysseus was unlikely the killer of a cyclops and survivor of the sirens.

On another note, I'm prepared to concede that Jesus Christ, and even 'God' are real. In the same way that Ra, Osiris, Zeus, Thor, Shiva and the Shinto spirits (and Harry Potter) are real. Though they may be socio-cultural constructs, their varied importance and significance for the everyday lives of adherents and non-believers is such that despite their highly doubtful objective reality, the social ramifications are such that they certainly have real effects on people's lives, and are powerful lay-and-institutional tools in networks of power. They are most certainly real in that sense.

In fact, I'm much more concerned about challenging this reality than appealing to rationalist ideals of objective knowledge. As such appeals mean little to the faithful, and I stand by critiques of positivism and the scientific method (that being said, although scientific knowledge is certainly socially constructed, I'm not prepared to accept the relativity of all forms of knowledge, and would contend that, despite the valid criticisms, scientific attempts at rational and objective knowledge production are the best forms of generating knowledge of the physical world that we have).

As such, I would much rather critique the various institutions and common-knowledges of religion which serve to variously indoctrinate young people, maintain unbalanced and unequal hierarchies of power, entrench and exacerbate various uneven topologies of gender, sexual and racial relations, encourage xenophobic and otherwise divisive international Otherings, are mobilised for atrocities such as war, torture and persecution in many forms, and fosters potentially very dangerous ignorance and uncritical acceptance of authority.

But, anyway, I digress.



I would like to start by clearing a few things in the days a jesus you could be murdered just because you didn't agree with someones opinion people where very voilent people rape and murder was common everyday things
even in small town of say 10000 people murder was an everyday thing
We've come along way.



How can you compare Jesus to an eygptian god or harrypotter? , some pharoahs claimed to be gods that would be much more comparable your comparing apples and oranges.
What people accept as common knowledge is all questionable just like this dribble you've just written for example.
Do not think you are above such things this world is what you make of it and trashing on other peoples beliefs doesn't make your reality the truth.
Altho I respect your opinoin I couildn't disagree more I respect these
various institutions and religeons for the compassion they show and all the charity they do to help the people of this world.

I watched the mel gibson movie about the life of jesus and profeesionals say that isn't even close to how bad he suffered and was beaten,
Anyway you look at at he died for all of us and didn't cry out once while every inch of his flesh was lashed off of his body you disgust me comparing him to harry potter or some god that doesn't exist and doesn't understand the suffering he went threw for the sole benifit of future generation.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." einstein
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Postby Antichrist_Online » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:16 pm

Right time for me to give my two pennith. The Egyptian/Norse gods are still worshiped by some people (Including myself(Asatru)). The god of Abraham is just as valid as any of my gods, but no more so. Just because more people buy into that system of brainwashing doesn't mean it's more right. For all we know Harry Potter could exsist, there's no way of proving it isn't happening on another earth-like planet, through some sort of Clarke's third law technology.

On Jesus being real, he may have been but his death didn't save me from anything, he was just another one of the numerous cult leaders at the time, look at the Cult of Mythras if you don't believe me (most christainity has foundations in that). You die, you turn to dust, that's it. Humans don't count for crap in this universe, you're only just above spacedust, and alot more arrogant.

With regards crying out with pain. I take servere whippings regularly, both in combat and at my Mistress's (and former Masters in the past) hands, and only in the most extreme case cry out in pain. Most normal people would pass out long before the flesh was lashed off. You bought the propaganda like everyone else.

Religion was at the heart of most of the worst torture, wars and oppression the world has and still does know. People very close to me have suffered badly under religious opression from so-called "Christians" in attempts to save them.

In conclusion, I hope you're right enough for there to be a hell, because I'm damn well going to be staff if there is and you'll be in my domain then, and I can be far more creative than most of the horrors in your story book...
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Postby formerly known as hf » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:11 pm

buddyhall wrote:
formerly known as hf wrote:-snip-


-snip-

I watched the mel gibson movie about the life of jesus and profeesionals say that isn't even close to how bad he suffered and was beaten,
Anyway you look at at he died for all of us and didn't cry out once while every inch of his flesh was lashed off of his body you disgust me comparing him to harry potter or some god that doesn't exist and doesn't understand the suffering he went threw for the sole benifit of future generation.
I just watched Troy. and I can say, for a fact, that Achilles was a man embued with wonderous strength from having been dipped in a magical well. He also looked like a pretty hot Cali surfer type.

I may disgust you. But, please, be assured, the feeling is mutual.

How can you dismiss all these 'gods who do not exist' and be so certain that your god does?
Is that not just plain arrogance?
(Yes, kettle and pots and all that - But if people are gonna bang on about the importance of religion, endoctrinate our children, spend their time trashing science, trashing all manner of liberties, refusing equal rights, rolling up endoctrination in the form of compassion, enforcing their warped beliefs in the name of charity, and then demanding upmost civility and respect for their fairy-tale beliefs....)

If Jesus suffered, it was for no benefit of mine. Indeed, his damned legacy, or, at least, what the church over the years has construed as his legacy, is a bloody nuisance. That's putting it mildly.


@Anti
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I believe there's a special circle of hell put aside for people like me. You might know it by it's vernacular term, the M25...
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Postby ezz » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:14 pm

formerly known as hf wrote:
I may disgust you. But, please, be assured, the feeling is mutual.

How can you dismiss all these 'gods who do not exist' and be so certain that your god does?
Is that not just plain arrogance?
(Yes, kettle and pots and all that - But if people are gonna bang on about the importance of religion, endoctrinate our children, spend their time trashing science, trashing all manner of liberties, refusing equal rights, rolling up endoctrination in the form of compassion, enforcing their warped beliefs in the name of charity, and then demanding upmost civility and respect for their fairy-tale beliefs....)

If Jesus suffered, it was for no benefit of mine. Indeed, his damned legacy, or, at least, what the church over the years has construed as his legacy, is a bloody nuisance. That's putting it mildly.


Top stuff, well said!

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