Religion

[formerly known as hf]

JESUSES RESURECTION!!!

Gah. Some people just do not get it.

Becaus Jesus died and rose again. We have proof (must i go over it again? Oh, and I think diego had something against it....pleas inform me.) of it, and it cannot just be reasoned out.

You don't have proof.
You have speculation and blind dogma.
Whatsmore, it's clear just how blind that is - both myself and Diego have, on numerous occasions, made it very clear why you have no proof, and just how flimsy the 'evidence' you bring forwaed is.
Yet you can't even remember what it was we said - even though we said it many many times, that is how blind you are to all else but what you have been endoctrinated with.

[Mykey]

In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Write to me in PM, we will discuss.

[Mykey]

It is cleared

[formerly known as hf]

I do think homosexuality is rong, but perhaps that is my upbringing, and I have no prjiduce against anyone who is gay.

you can't condem something as wrong without being predjudiced. - Making a judgement of that kind is almost the definition of predjudice

We all have our predjudices, mine is quite narrowly focused on freaky religious types. I'm happy to admit it, I'm not the type to be all nicey nicey for the shallow sake of it.

People shouldn't bother forming an opinion on something if they don't have the courage to express it outright, or the even greater courage to take on board oppositions and maybe change their opinion (something I lack on occasion)

I had stopped reading anything pie writes here, and I should stop again. He constanly, obviously, just regurgitates whatever he has been told by others, and refuses to engage in anything which contradicts opinions which he didn't even form for himself.
I can't imagine pie knows anything about the medics behind addiction, and how frankly absurd his suggestion sounds. I doubt he knows anything about the choice/biology debate in depth.

I do think homosexuality is rong, but perhaps that is my upbringing, and I have no prjiduce against anyone who is gay.

Pie, you clearly show some understanding that 'homosexuality is wrong' is something you have been taught, but it also seems that you see no real reason to hold an ill-feelings towards someone based upon their sexuality. Maybe, then, you should further question your upbringing?
If you hold no ill feeling towards homosexuals, why say it's wrong? I'm sure you're a good enough guy to judge poeple on more than their sexuality or beliefs - why then, even bother to make a moral jusgement about sexuality at all?

As for choice. Think of this, pie. Gay people no more conciously choose to be attracted to those of the same gender, as heterosexual people conciously choose to be attracted to those of the opposite gender.

[west]

If there aren't gods, humankind WILL create them.

Create what? Gods? What good is God if he CANNOT create human beings? Really... Will we just make up a God and say, oh, he's God, let's worship him.. But for what? For doing what?

If there was no God, Dee, humanity would make one up.

You claim there is no God but Allah. That means that every other god or goddess in the history of human belief and faith is made up.

So you have no problem, I'm assuming, saying that the vast majority of 'gods' are fictitious, and were made up by humanity to explain things that could not otherwise be explained. From Odin to Ba'al to Venus to Wah'Kon'Tah to Coyote and beyond.

I maintain that if all of those were made up by man, how can you be sure yours isn't?

Faith itself is not enough. Faith is a psychological condition and can easily be misplaced; e.g. I had faith in my president not to take my country into a racist moneygrubbing war under pretenses he knew to be false. My faith was misplaced. Millions of children have faith that their parents will love and nurture and protect them, and sometimes their faith is misplaced. Billions of people have faith in gods other than yours, and by your own admission since your god is the only one, their faith is misplaced. Or if it is the same God as yours, they're following Him the wrong way.

I am merely bringing up the possibility that your God not be exempt from the possibility that He does not exist after all.

I believed in God for most of my life. I am not bitter or angry at God for nonexistence, I just do not think that there is evidence or any other reason to believe in the existence of a God or gods.

[Elros]

Hmm.. What you said makes us go straight to square number one. Wars. hatred, terrorism, and everything else are human made. What makes them human made? Free will. Some people are bad, and they make wrong choices, and thus make the wolrd a misrable place.

If homosexuality was truly 'unnatural' - why have so many cultures considered it the norm?

If you think about what you said, you'll find that non-relegious people are the ones who make homosexuality the norm. Which just proves what Elros has said.

If there aren't gods, humankind WILL create them.

Create what? Gods? What good is God if he CANNOT create human beings? Really... Will we just make up a God and say, oh, he's God, let's worship him.. But for what? For doing what?

Anyway... I think that if you are just willing to open up your mind and believe that there is a possibility for God to exist, maybe you'll understand and, hopefully, believe.

I completely agree with you Dee. You are very right.

[Elros]

The onus should not be on us to prove that we are acceptable or 'normal', the onus is on believers to see that the discrimination is unjustified, and unwarranted. Homosexuality has been around much much longer than any modern religion.

Two things:

1. Yes Homosexuality has been around longer than "Religion". In fact sin has been around since before the beginning of the earth. Lucifer(now satan, or the devil) fell from heaven when he rebelled against God and thought that he could take God's place as the Supreme Ruler and the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So yes homosexuality which is a sin(according to God and the Bible) has been around longer than most religions, but not longer than God. What does it prove anyways that it has been around longer than most religions?

2. The "discrimination", as you call it, is not unjustified at all. We do "not" hate Homosexuals, but we do hate Homosexuality. There is a difference. It is not the person but the sin that we hate. God hates it(according to the Bible). It is also unnatural. If you took a group of 100 homosexuals and put them on an island all by themselves, and left them there for lets say 100 years. When you came back everyone of them would be dead and their race extinct. Homosexuals cannot reproduce, and all natural creatures reproduce. It is part of life, people die and new ones are born. Thank God everyone is not homosexuals or the whole earth would be extinct of Mankind in one generation from now. That is just 1 reason why Homosexuality "is" unnatural. There are many, many more.

[Elros]

JESUSES RESURECTION!!!

Gah. Some people just do not get it.

Becaus Jesus died and rose again. We have proof (must i go over it again? Oh, and I think diego had something against it....pleas inform me.) of it, and it cannot just be reasoned out.

You don't have proof.
You have speculation and blind dogma.
Whatsmore, it's clear just how blind that is - both myself and Diego have, on numerous occasions, made it very clear why you have no proof, and just how flimsy the 'evidence' you bring forwaed is.
Yet you can't even remember what it was we said - even though we said it many many times, that is how blind you are to all else but what you have been endoctrinated with.

Let me ask you a question. Do you belive that George Washington was the first President? Do you believe that we landed on the Moon? Do you believe that there are Great White Sharks in the ocean?

All of the things above you ave not seen with your own eyes, and "Men" wrote about all of it, but you have no problem believing it. You have no "Proof" besides what other men have told you. You belive all these things and 100's more without hesitation. So why is it so hard for you to believe in God?

[Pie]

"I may not believe what you say is right, but i will give my life to give you the right to say it"

That's what I mean, by no prejiduce against gays.

"Jesus Christ himself was probably a myth"

He lived. Nobody in there right minds can doubt that (must i bring up that heroloth, or whatever, thing? the jewish historian, mentioning a "wise man" named crist, and a roman (i think) Historian, mentioning cristian following cristus.)

He died. (it also mentions that he was crusified in the roman historian's one)

He rose again.(the apostles were myrterd. The preachings of that one person, saying that the myrters, and mentioning paul's name, and surly there are others.

Also, conserning "myrterdome dosen't mean that you are telling the truth"

There are 3 types of lies.

When you know the truth, but you lie to cover the truth up.(Requiers something to gain(they were myrters.)

When someone tells you a lie, but you believe it as a truth.(Requres someone els lying to them(they were eye witnesses)

Someone tells you a lie, and teaches it as truth, and someone tells you the truth, but you take the lie over the truth.(Requires being taught the lie. it requires someone els teaching you the lie, and teaching it as a truth. and as I have explained, nobody taught them anything(well, jesus taught them some things, but he backed them up with logic) they were there)

I don't thing the apostles fit into any one of these.

And frankly, there are some cases, like murders and the like, that are 50 years old, and don't have the evidence that this has. maby some that are 30 years old, don't have the evidence that this has, BUT someone was convicted.

Tells you something, don't it.

"There is good evidence that christianity was established from a mixture of about 8 holy men in the 3rd century AD" This is.... to say the least... the worst argunment EVER. No wait.. nevermind(the worst is saying jesus didn't exist)

the worst. And the reason is*dramatic paus* THERE ARE EARLYER (than that) MENTIONS OF CRIST, AND EARLYER COPY'S OF THE BIBLE THAN THAT!!!

And the fact that *another dramatic paus* EMPORER NEARO PERSICUTED CRISTIANS IN 65 A.D. (and 100, 120 150, and so on.(approx)

"The earliest quotation of Matthew is found in Ignatius who died around 115 A.D.Therefore, Matthew was in circulation well before Ignatius came on the scene. "

Theres another.

"But the morals of the story are what should be taken away with the reader, not the deification of a constructed myth to unite a falling pagan empire.....god.... is not necessary. Probably is there, but nothing like you imagine." I agree. the morals of the story should be taken from it. But, BUT, the religion(not in the way of traditions, of believing in god) should be taken away to.

UNITE A FALLING PAGAN EMPIRE?!?!?

Hah. Than why were they persicuted?

God is necesary. I don't want to have to explain, you'll learn in time.

Bah. Here you go.

God created us. God keeps satan frome distroying us. God makes an afterlife for us so we don't just get spewd into oblivion when we die. god gives us hope. God gives us love. but most of all, God gives us hope.(yes, i know, I repeated myself)

"You don't have proof.
You have speculation and blind dogma.
Whatsmore, it's clear just how blind that is - both myself and Diego have, on numerous occasions, Blind blind blind blind blah blah blah blah blah blather blather blather blather"

Sorry.

about the proof being flimsy...

actually, I think I have put up ample proof of it. I have succesfully proved that he has lived. That he has died. I have put up philosiphical and written evidence of him rising again.

It may be flimsy, but it is far from the blather that you make it out to be.

And really, I am sorry about having a bad memory, and or having such a low amount of time in the day to look back and find out what you said. but should that be put up as proof in this argunment? I mean, really, it dosen't prove anything, exept that i forget and i have no time in the day.

speaking of "no time in the day"

(by)

[Pie]

AND, AND AND!!!!

It is posibal that there was a star (actually jupiter and marz lined up with another star) in the sky, the king star thing, over egipt. The same one that was over bethlahem, causing him to fear that there was someone who would overthrough him.

Proven fact, pleas look it up, it may be there somewere...

before i go to bed, I must clerify this.

It is compleatly unsubstantial, but i would like to present this theory.

You know the star that was above bethlahem when jesus was born?

turns out that this star is actually jupiter, and two other heavenly bodies lined up together.

And, this thing happens about every 1400 years.

The pharo ramases was in power around 1400b.c. right?

It's a theory.

[Elros]

Pie you had a pretty good post there and I do agree with most of it, but you need to put the quotes from other people in actual "Quoted Boxes". It makes it easier for people to understand. Alot of that looked like you were saying it and then saying it was wrong. I understood it cause I had read the other posts that it was written in but it would clarify your post better.

I think the best point you made is the following:

There is good evidence that christianity was established from a mixture of about 8 holy men in the 3rd century AD

This is.... to say the least... the worst argunment EVER. No wait.. nevermind(the worst is saying jesus didn't exist) the worst. And the reason is*dramatic paus* THERE ARE EARLYER (than that) MENTIONS OF CRIST, AND EARLYER COPY'S OF THE BIBLE THAN THAT!!!

And the fact that *another dramatic paus* EMPORER NEARO PERSICUTED CRISTIANS IN 65 A.D. (and 100, 120 150, and so on.(approx)

The earliest quotation of Matthew is found in Ignatius who died around 115 A.D.Therefore, Matthew was in circulation well before Ignatius came on the scene.

However most of your other points were accurate also. You could however describe yourself a little better.

[Pie]

*shrugs* I try.

[Elros]

AND, AND AND!!!!

It is posibal that there was a star (actually jupiter and marz lined up with another star) in the sky, the king star thing, over egipt. The same one that was over bethlahem, causing him to fear that there was someone who would overthrough him.

Proven fact, pleas look it up, it may be there somewere...

before i go to bed, I must clerify this.

It is compleatly unsubstantial, but i would like to present this theory.

You know the star that was above bethlahem when jesus was born?

turns out that this star is actually jupiter, and two other heavenly bodies lined up together.

And, this thing happens about every 1400 years.

The pharo ramases was in power around 1400b.c. right?

It's a theory.

I guess it is a decent theory, but it is not in the Bible, and is not a historic fact that I know of. However it is an ok theory none the less, and would not contradict with what the Bible said if the theory were true.

[west]

If I give you a book and say, "Here, everything in this book is always right," you'd laugh at me. So I'd say, "Well, God wrote this book." Would you believe me? Just on the strength of my word?

No? So why do you believe what's handed you?

You come into the argument presupposing that you already know the answers, presupposing that your holy text is always right and if there is a discrepancy, it must be because the other person is wrong. That's not a good way to develop a discerning and intelligent mind, any more than "Well, my my brother's a lawyer, and he says this is okay" is a reasonable argument.

[Nosajimiki]

I for one have no problem against people who are gay, but I do have a problem with the consept of gayness.(Saying that it's not your fault that your gay, and I can't controll my gayness, Is like saying it's not your fault your fat. OF COURSE IT IS!! You sat around all day (you didn't try and controll it) you kept eating (you kept doing 'gay' things) you didn't exersice(you didn't try and controll it) It is your fault you are gay, and you can controll it, just like any other addiction. I have no problem if you don't controll it, but don't try and use that for an argunment for it)

homosexuality and obesity, although able to be chosen to an extent do have genetic guiders that can remove the freedom to chose for oneself.

1)I know plenty of homosexuals and most of them only came to the realization that they are that way after wondering for years why they could not find members of the opposite sex attractive. One of which thougth he was just confussed and went through over a year of therapy trying to "fix" himself, but he can simply no more find a woman sexually attractive than a heterosexual could a member of his own gender. He only finds men attractive, he in no way chose it. Also not all the homosexuals I know are sexually active, but gay none the less. How is that a choice?

As for the 100 gays in 100 years stipulation, you are basing that on the idea that a malignant genes are actually garrented to die away. A number of ressessive genes inparticular are commonly terminal. More-over, in a reccessed situation the same gene that would cause a man to be homsexual can instead cause a man to just get along better with other men thereby making him more fit to survive and reproduce. It's the same as with sycle-cell aenemia, ressessed it makes you virtually immune to maleria, unressessed, it's ussally fatal.

2) As for obessity, there are more identified factors for that than you can immagine, most of which are related to genetics. I know some fat people who excorcise every day and have less than a 1000 cal diet, and I know skinny people who dont excorcise and eat a 4000-5000 cal diet. Some people even become very sickly if they try to maintain a "noramal" wieght. Back to genetics, hypothyroidism and a number of other endocrin disorders can make a person fat, Stress also. And stress is a response to stimuli which verious people will feel differently again reflected by genetics. Other things like high metabolism, tapworms, etc make it possible if not easier for other people (maybe yourself included) to maintain a normal wieght or possibly not even be able to get up to a normal wieght at all.