Religion

[Mykey]

The properties leaves

[formerly known as hf]

The major issue with seeing time as being infinite - into the past and future, is that in an infinite world, the probability of anything is 1

Also, if time has stretched into infinity into the past, then we would already be in the final state of entropy.

You cannot have a particular point in time on an infinite timescale - infinite time is just not possible.

Quatnum physics and chaos explain that you can have an event without a cuase - things can happen with no preceedence.

Whilst this is observable, and the most likely explanation - that there was no 'before the Big Bang' as the Big Bang was the start of time, and that it had no cause. It is a highly difficult thing to comprehend. For me, to say that the Big Bang was the start, it had no cause, it was the begining of time itself, or to fully comprehend quantum physics and chaos as things happening with no cause, requires the same belief in something without cause which a belief in God requires, which is something which doesn't sit comfortably in my mind - no matter how well it explains what is observable and understood.

[Mykey]

Just that is necessary. A good theme, I will participate. Together we can come to a right answer.

[Zanthos]

couldn't we just merge the two and say god caused the big bang?

And the we can all agree to disagree.

[Mykey]

In it something is. I will know, many thanks for the help in this question.

[Zanthos]

We'll let god be a varriable.

[Antichrist_Online]

Has anyone seen the Doctor Who episode The Pit? That really brings it to light, he can believe beyond, from outside of or from a distant part of the universe but has difficulty believing there is anything before the universe. Why is it we have trouble with before more so than beyond? (Favorite episode of the last series actually).

[Diego]

Alright folks. Quantum theory and quantum mechanics offer several explanations that have been experimentally tested and are backed by solid, though complex, mathematics. At a sub-atomic level, high-energy mechanics do not work anything like things around us work, and certain basic tenets of physics and the Universe, such as causality, do not apply.

Indeed, at this level, matter and energy do not definitely exist (or not exist). They have probabilities of existing at a given position at a give point in time. Basically, things can pop in and out of existance.

Well, of course, none of these affects anything in our macroscale universe, since the physics that rule us works out differently. However, the Big Bang theory states that before time and the universe and dimensions existed, there was a tiny, tiny, tiniest than anything you can ever imagine point-like condensation of energy, which would have behaved like a quantum field. So why did it become so big and large? Most likely a random fluctuation in a quantum field.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, you should look into Edward Tyron, Alexander Vilenkin, recent works of Stephen Hawking and James Hartle, though Hartle can be quite abstract.

[Floris]

Hmm, but if there is energy, then there is not nothing is it.


Oh, and I also have difficulty gripping the meaning of beyond.
I understand a vacuum, and I can accept it being outside the universe. And I know the universe expands with the speed of light. But still, how can anything such be bordered?



Actually the more I think about such things, the more I believe in God. Lol

[Diego]

That's a typical source for belief. Unfortunately, the deeper science God, the further the retreats for the God of the Gaps.

And no one said there was nothing. There was energy, compressed in an infinitely small quantum-like field. Where did that come from? It could not come from anywhere, as "things coming from things" is a concept that comes from time and causality, which are properties of the post-Big Bang universe and of the behavior of matter at a larger scale.

[formerly known as hf]

I understand the rudimentaries of quantum physics, and I understand they are observable and backed by mathematics, but, like you say, it operates on such a level, that comprehension is difficult, to say the least.

Chaos theory, which is closely tied to quantum theories, requires a suspension of many of our understandings world as we percieve it.

Admitedly, perception is heavily subjective, and we can only ever percieve our world, not know it, but our lives and our perceptions teaches us some fundamentals that jar quite distinctly with what quantum mechanics asks of us to concieve.

Which is why, whilst I grasp the theory and reasoning behind quantum-level physics/mechanics and chaos theory, and understand and believe it to be the closest we have got to a full explanation (and I guess we'll leave the debates about explanation - what it 'means', is it possible, desirable, etc. for another day)

What it asks for me is too far from my experience, and too, albeit superficially, close to religious/supranatural beliefs, for me to ever be comfortable with it, but that does not me I do not accept it.

[Pie]

wait... Quantum theory has something about energy just popping in and out of existance?

I would like an explanation. Becaus I have a beleafe that something cant be made out of nothing. It has to have a cause, and a source.

And how does quantum theory explain the caus for the making of something out of nothing?

I would beleave that the miniature wormhols it sais that are found in atoms just suck energy frome other atoms, or frome differen't dimentions.. but out of nothing? Do me a little favore, find me a differen't place in science were something just apears out of nothing.

Becaus I cant comprehen something out of nothing. Thats like saying... I can make lead into gold without expanding any energy. I just cant... comprehend it.

[Mykey]

You topic read?

[Diego]

wait... Quantum theory has something about energy just popping in and out of existance?

I would like an explanation. Becaus I have a beleafe that something cant be made out of nothing. It has to have a cause, and a source.

And how does quantum theory explain the caus for the making of something out of nothing?

I would beleave that the miniature wormhols it sais that are found in atoms just suck energy frome other atoms, or frome differen't dimentions.. but out of nothing? Do me a little favore, find me a differen't place in science were something just apears out of nothing.

Becaus I cant comprehen something out of nothing. Thats like saying... I can make lead into gold without expanding any energy. I just cant... comprehend it.

You're not supposed to. Quantum fluctuations occur within quantum fields, which are much, much smaller than atoms. Quantum theory rules only the subatomic world, and as such, is quite hard to picture for us at the Newtonian level. Basically, causality is not a given within a quantum-like field of sufficient density. Things don't need a reason to exist or cease to exist, they work around the probably of existing.

[Pie]

so becaus the sirfice of an atom moves around alot, energy can be made?