Cantr II Discussion Forum

Tally for this week: 9 bugs were fixed, and 3 features were added. Progress was a bit slower this week because there were a lot of changes outside of development that created a delay. Despite that, a lot of functionality that was developed last week has been tested and fixed up this week. Hunting now has a waiting period of an hour per animal. You can now begin burying bodies, and you can also begin taming animals. Additionally, a bigger feature that was added along with taming was resource consumption when starting a project that requires it. Next week, I'm hoping to get the projects menu designed and mostly functional with joining, cancelling, and adding pay to a project operational.

Next week, I'm hoping to get the projects menu designed and mostly functional with joining, cancelling, and adding pay to a project operational.

*gasp* CRAFTINGCRAFTINGCRAFTING?! =D

Crafting is a separate set of features that will come after viewing projects. There are two types, a bunch of recipes, and maybe even different screens depending on the type of crafting you're doing. It's a huge aspect to the game, but we're getting close.

LittleSoul wrote:Crafting is a separate set of features that will come after viewing projects. There are two types, a bunch of recipes, and maybe even different screens depending on the type of crafting you're doing. It's a huge aspect to the game, but we're getting close.

So crafting will not just be something that is a set up and wait? But something with some other mechanics?

Arval wrote:

LittleSoul wrote:Crafting is a separate set of features that will come after viewing projects. There are two types, a bunch of recipes, and maybe even different screens depending on the type of crafting you're doing. It's a huge aspect to the game, but we're getting close.

So crafting will not just be something that is a set up and wait? But something with some other mechanics?

Not for everything you can craft, no. There are plenty of items that will just have standard recipes, such as tools, machines, buildings, and so on. Things that need specific amounts of specific materials (which I call recipe crafting), but, for certain other types of items, crafting is more like.. cooking in real life. It's called Freeform crafting, and it allows you to pick and choose the ingredients you have. The materials you use have a hand in determining how powerful the resulting item is, along with your own skills and attributes.

This kind of crafting will initially only be available for cooking, alchemy, and smithing (armor as well as weapons).

When cooks, alchemists, or smiths want to create one of their associated items, they will have a screen which will present them with the various options for resources at their disposal. Unlike regular crafting, in this screen the quality of the material matters. Steel is a better material than iron for smithing. Herbs have certain levels of potency in alchemy. Ingredients in cooking all have different nutrition levels that when combined in a dish, will fill you up more or less than other dishes in cooking.

So, in the end, with the right skill and materials or ingredients you can end up making very powerful items for reducing hunger, regaining health, and arming people. If anyone has ever played Morrowind that is familiar with their spell creation system, it's a bit like that, for reference.

While this system is pretty practical in its own right with mechanics alone, in addition it gives characters who make these skills their vocations more depth in what they do. Every item that is made through this system can be named, and described; it can be completely customized. It has some small limitations, like how many total ingredients can be used in one craft, to keep it from becoming overpowered. Also, the best ingredients for different types of crafting in this manner are spread out, not concentrated. So a character intent on having the best of the best to work with would have to be dedicated.

In essence, this allows you to 'invent' new items and recipes. You can be the first person to create a great sword, or establish just what scrambled eggs is, or of course anything new and completely without real-world affiliation. These types of items will also have a list of their ingredients in the description so you can see what is in it. No secret recipes, I'm afraid, but it lets people know what they should be tasting or feeling when they interact with an object created in this manner, instead of having to rely on the player-made description which has the potential to be abused and unrealistic. For example, most people could look at an item named 'pudding', and it is described like pudding, but if it's made out of carrots, potatoes, and meat.. we all know that isn't pudding. At least not in real life context. I suppose everyone in the game could decide stew-like dishes are now called pudding IG if they wanted to.

How many locations will there be?

The skills/crafting design sounds like it might play out beautifully. It sounds like it will cater well to both simmers and RPers, while also playing a very significant role in creating opportunities in societies.

It can even allow for passing tidbits of culture. EX: A younger member of society might not be able to mechanically replicate the exact quality of "grandma's cookies," but they can pass down the "recipe" (both mechanical and the description grandma made) and try to replicate it for their own kids/grandkids.

There could also be true regional cookbooks, since presumably different locations would add different amounts of certain ingredients based on what is in abundance. There could become a significant distinction between what the rich and the poor eat, etc.

How many locations will there be?

In total, including all created ocean tiles which cannot be used yet for sailing, there are 868 tiles.

When only counting land tiles, I can't be exact because they aren't all even in the database yet since I'm using a small map for testing. I'd say about 75% of the total tiles are land, so a ball park number is about 651 tiles.

The world was purposely made smaller than Cantr and FTO, because I feel the map should grow with the player base to keep interaction between different groups balanced. Especially early on in the game. That being said, there's plenty of room for all the initial groups to grow or for wilderness to remain, and the map has several distinct biomes. Every individual tile has its own specific properties, as well, such as having a river running through it, or being at the side of a mountain. Different properties have different benefits and resource availability. All biomes, meaning the different sections of the map that have a collective 'base' biome, like a desert, tundra, jungle, or forest, will have its own set of self-sustainable resources. This means every major area can live on its own without dependency from trade outside of the biome for basic things like building materials or food. Within these areas though, trade would be pretty important. The incentive for outside-biome trading instead will be in luxury, high quality ingredients and materials, which each biome has only one or two of, and its biome has the monopoly. You can only go to the desert to get a certain type of gem, for example. Well established towns in different biomes will have to trade for those exclusive resources if they want to create some of the best (or fanciest) items in the game. Each biome also has its own unique areas as well, such as ruins, shrines, crypts, and so on that will host some of the Story Arcs, quests, and magical artifacts in the game, which will encourage some travel across biomes.

That being said, I expect I will be expanding the world in time, once the game is launched and I have time to implement a full expansion for ships, down the line.

MonkeyPants4736 wrote:The skills/crafting design sounds like it might play out beautifully. It sounds like it will cater well to both simmers and RPers, while also playing a very significant role in creating opportunities in societies.

It can even allow for passing tidbits of culture. EX: A younger member of society might not be able to mechanically replicate the exact quality of "grandma's cookies," but they can pass down the "recipe" (both mechanical and the description grandma made) and try to replicate it for their own kids/grandkids.

There could also be true regional cookbooks, since presumably different locations would add different amounts of certain ingredients based on what is in abundance. There could become a significant distinction between what the rich and the poor eat, etc.

Thank you, I am glad to hear it. That's exactly the result I am trying to go for. A little bit of legacy, and more encouragement for culture as well as customization to really make the experience as unique as you're determined to make it - without getting in the way of any given player's play style.

I'm posting the tally early this week: 9 bugs were squished and 8 features were finished, all involving the project menu.

You can now view ongoing projects in the project menu. On the menu, there is a brief description of the most important parts of the interface, a more in-depth description that can be optionally read by clicking Read More, and a wiki link for those who want a more technical explanation of the mechanics.

Then a list of the projects which are being worked on in the area can be seen including what type, an indication of whether this project is a job, the progress, and who the owner/employer of the project is.

You can click on the project name to get a dropdown section of more specific information about each project, but the type of information you get depends on whether you started the project, whether it's a job, and how old the project is.

You will be able to see who is working on the project, and how many resources or what item will be produced at project completion. If the project is a job, you will be able to see how much you will be paid for working on the project based on the skill it needs.

If you are the owner of a project then you have some additional power. Firstly, you will be able to add money to a project to make it into a job which will pay workers to do the project. There is an explanation of how this works in the window, but this is basically how it works. A project holds a total sum of money that has been added to it, and this is distributed to workers based on how much they contribute.

When you add money to a project, you are adding to that total sum, which is the amount of money you're saying you are willing to pay for the entire project to be completed. If you put 10 coins on a project to gather 10 apples, you're paying 10 coins for 10 apples, or 1 coin a piece.

You cannot subtract money from this total, to avoid abuse, so if you make a mistake you will have to cancel the project and start it again. Cancelling a project can be done if you are the owner and no one is working on the project, or if the project is over two game years old with no one working on it, then you don't have to be an owner to cancel it.

All aspects of this menu are fully functional and tested, so this coming week we will be moving onto the implementation of Recipe Crafting.

The screens below show the different projects from different character perspectives.

Well, would you look at that? An economy feature. Perhaps this will facilitate trade and coin flowing without the employers being there 24/7.

Two friends of mine have two questions - will there be different currencies or just gold? And, can resources used as currency in the pay system?

I had a few questions similar to Arval's, too, but will wait to hear the response to his.

Arval, thanks for the questions. I'm going to address them, as well as your comment.

Perhaps this will facilitate trade and coin flowing without the employers being there 24/7.

Firstly, currently it's true that employers could walk away from the work without having to worry about employees being paid - they could even die and it wouldn't stop pay per hour because the total sum of money will already have been applied to the job.

However it may not stay like that forever, particularly with the introduction of facilities - a bank specifically.
I will be encouraging the growth of 'modern, civilized' societies by rewarding them with expanded options and passive benefits when the appropriate facility is built. I am still debating whether banks will be one of these facilities, and what effects it will have. Potentially in the case of a bank, without one, as an employer you must be in the location of your jobs in order for your employees to get paid and for work to progress. If a bank has been built in the area, you'll be able to leave the entire town, travel, do whatever you please, because the bank will distribute your money for you.
It's an idea I am still playing with as far as the connections with facilities and jobs go, so I just want you to be aware in case something along those lines occurs at a later date.

The goal is certainly to facilitate trade and build an economy. Workers will want to spend their money on goods, which will breed private businesses as well as community trade depending how what sort of town it is.

will there be different currencies or just gold?

On to your first question, the short answer is that I am not sure yet.
Here's the long answer. I have been discussing it and mulling it over heavily the last few days. It's all about balancing the economy between mechanics (characters will still be able to manipulate it if they are determined enough, but that's perfectly fine, and realistic).

Right now, I have money set as being mostly ambiguous, and using a decimal system which pretty much removes the need to have more than one type of money (mechanically, at least; the decimals could always be called something else, but the game itself sees it as just currency with no differentiation). I haven't decided yet if it's worth breaking it up into multiple money types. The question is simple, the answer is not.

It depends on the answers to several other questions about the economy. Will metal resources be limited? (Yes.) Will you be able to press your own metal into coins? Melt them back down? If we can melt gold coins should we be able to melt gold from items? What happens if, over time, all the gold is pooled into coins with none left for using in crafting? So on and so forth. An economy is a huge system with a lot of components, and I still need to work out the answers to all these questions aside from the first in order to get to the point of deciding how money itself is structured.

can resources used as currency in the pay system?

For your second question, the answer is no. You will not be able to apply resources or items as pay to an employee for their labor using the pay system. You can still barter for services and pay them in goods manually, but you will not be able to use the pay feature which will alleviate you from having to do anything manually at all. The pay system is automatic. The reason for this is that bartering is meant to be kept as a primitive form of trade, while the pay system is meant to be more advanced than bartering. Bartering with goods will never be as efficient or have as many benefits as trading with money. An additional benefit is that money doesn't take up inventory space, while goods do - a primary reason money began to be used in real life.

It will be encouraged by the nature of the system for potential leaders, town residents, and pioneers, to work toward building their town up to become more sophisticated and civilized in order to gain the benefits. They always have the option not to, and you could have a town that only believes/trusts in the bartering system, but you won't be able to use the conveniences that money (or potentially banks) will have.

Think of facilities a bit like the advancements in culture you can make in Sid Meier's Civilization series. Adding more sophisticated public works and technology gives residents more options, long-term benefits, or protection depending on the type of facility. They will help encourage culture, and along with the political system, will help define one town as being different from another.

I will be encouraging the growth of 'modern, civilized' societies by rewarding them with expanded options and passive benefits when the appropriate facility is built. I am still debating whether banks will be one of these facilities, and what effects it will have. Potentially in the case of a bank, without one, as an employer you must be in the location of your jobs in order for your employees to get paid and for work to progress. If a bank has been built in the area, you'll be able to leave the entire town, travel, do whatever you please, because the bank will distribute your money for you.
It's an idea I am still playing with as far as the connections with facilities and jobs go, so I just want you to be aware in case something along those lines occurs at a later date.

I like that philosophy. Removing it from the do-it-from-the-ground-up approach that Cantr follows for everything goes in detriment to the pure, totally open-ended sandbox style, but that is done in favour of mechanics that follow society gameplay. This way a businessman does not have to stay in one place for coin transaction and cities which want to stay relevant and be appealing to these businessmen have a path to go for. These elements make the game more attractive not only for Simmers but strategy-like, Civilization people. I am curious where is this going to lead.

Right now, I have money set as being mostly ambiguous, and using a decimal system which pretty much removes the need to have more than one type of money (mechanically, at least; the decimals could always be called something else, but the game itself sees it as just currency with no differentiation). I haven't decided yet if it's worth breaking it up into multiple money types. The question is simple, the answer is not.

It depends on the answers to several other questions about the economy. Will metal resources be limited? (Yes.) Will you be able to press your own metal into coins? Melt them back down? If we can melt gold coins should we be able to melt gold from items? What happens if, over time, all the gold is pooled into coins with none left for using in crafting? So on and so forth. An economy is a huge system with a lot of components, and I still need to work out the answers to all these questions aside from the first in order to get to the point of deciding how money itself is structured.

Well, paper money has come to exist for a reason. Metals are limited while paper can be produced via massive tree plantations. All it takes is that money has printed a certain code that makes it legal and viable. That can be the solution people finds for limited coin resources.

The downside is that, if applied soon, most societies will most likely strive for paper money directly and will not bother into going through all the problems that leaded to the metal coin (players have the tendency to go for what it is more efficient). The existance of different currencies could be discussed if there was some sort of money exchange that shifted according to certain variables.

As for the rest of the post, I have nothing to add and I am glad you are making so much progress. I leave my turn to MonkeyPants, if willing to share their doubts.

A stamping system might also create a cool form of currency to supplement whatever else will be done regarding currency. It would function similar to a seal in Cantr, in that each stamp is unique. Anything crafted could be stamped. This could allow people to declare a guaranteed accepted value for the stamped item, and who must accept the stamped item as currency. Example: A family might have several stamps to fairly closely relate to the materials plus labor values of something they produce. The stamp might say: This item was created by the [family name] Family, has a guaranteed accepted value of [amount] which must be accepted by anyone with the name of [family name].

Weapons, clothing, pottery, anything could bear the stamp.

Arval wrote:
I like that philosophy. Removing it from the do-it-from-the-ground-up approach that Cantr follows for everything goes in detriment to the pure, totally open-ended sandbox style, but that is done in favour of mechanics that follow society gameplay. This way a businessman does not have to stay in one place for coin transaction and cities which want to stay relevant and be appealing to these businessmen have a path to go for. These elements make the game more attractive not only for Simmers but strategy-like, Civilization people. I am curious where is this going to lead.

Exactly, yes. That is what I am going for. I want players to be able to have all the fun parts of customizing, building, and creating everything from items to towns without having to deal with the 'grindy' aspect. It frees up the player to just do the fun stuff, instead of having to be extremely active for otherwise interesting ways of playing to work. This will remove issues you often see in Cantr, such as trade not being able to be accomplished in a community-driven (meaning trade is done with the town itself, not usually with businesses in it) town because one leader isn't awake very often, thereby stifling the whole town, as one example. I'm trying to make features support the player's style of playing. If you want to be a town leader or a business owner, all you have to think about is what you want to create, and how to make it possible - not how you'll have time maintain it.

Arval wrote:
Well, paper money has come to exist for a reason. Metals are limited while paper can be produced via massive tree plantations. All it takes is that money has printed a certain code that makes it legal and viable. That can be the solution people finds for limited coin resources.

The downside is that, if applied soon, most societies will most likely strive for paper money directly and will not bother into going through all the problems that leaded to the metal coin (players have the tendency to go for what it is more efficient). The existance of different currencies could be discussed if there was some sort of money exchange that shifted according to certain variables.

As for the rest of the post, I have nothing to add and I am glad you are making so much progress. I leave my turn to MonkeyPants, if willing to share their doubts.

I wanted to use metal currency precisely because they are limited. They do not have the problems that come with paper money. Paper money can be inflated like crazy, especially if people are allowed to make it easily, and if everyone can just created money whenever they want to without any tie-in to a real resource then... well, everyone would just print their money instead of trading for it, rendering it useless, or making goods cost a lot since the value of every piece of money is less. With metal-based currency you can only press as much as you have, lending an inherent value to the coin.

It's the same problems people have with inflation today, because money might as well be thin air - it's just digital numbers without any inherent value that is tied up with a real resource. Like gold. This makes it very tempting for people who can create money to just make more every time they need to pay for something or cover their debts. It's what a lot of governments do in real life, to pay debts, and it ends up in economic collapse. I want the economy to be able to be manipulated, not necessarily destroyed. At least not globally, for a while.

So I'll be sticking with money being related to limited metals because the economy can be managed more easily on my end, and metals are not easy to get or infinite.

A stamping system might also create a cool form of currency to supplement whatever else will be done regarding currency. It would function similar to a seal in Cantr, in that each stamp is unique. Anything crafted could be stamped. This could allow people to declare a guaranteed accepted value for the stamped item, and who must accept the stamped item as currency. Example: A family might have several stamps to fairly closely relate to the materials plus labor values of something they produce. The stamp might say: This item was created by the [family name] Family, has a guaranteed accepted value of [amount] which must be accepted by anyone with the name of [family name].

Interesting suggestion.
Items are already 'stamped' during creation, in a way. All crafted items are branded by their creator. I put this in for craftsman to have an official way for others to determine who (or what company) made something. Brands can't be changed like descriptions

Thanks for your suggestions and comments, you two.