Cantr II Discussion Forum

marol wrote:I see the point. However I'd like to mention that many things has been recently changed and still are changing in possibilities of tracking down OOC breaches, cooperating players and so on. Of course such small accidents like Mykey example of religious leader still are hard to track down, but the more players cooperate - the bigger change of catching them, sooner of later.

If this could be found and rooted out quickly I would have no argument. It is the later part that bothers me.....You end up losing players you may have come to enjoy i.e. Nick. You may lose some you hate. i.e. Nick.

Either way it`s a loss.

Mykey wrote:You end up losing players you may have come to enjoy i.e. Nick. You may lose some you hate. i.e. Nick.

Either way it`s a loss.

The player you mentioned made things which could be categorized as a "used in the manner (...) that would be bad in [your] opinion".

Yes, we end up losing players that may have come to enjoy AND break CR. But we also end up keeping players that may have come to enjoy AND follows CR.

marol wrote:

Mykey wrote:You end up losing players you may have come to enjoy i.e. Nick. You may lose some you hate. i.e. Nick.

Either way it`s a loss.

The player you mentioned made things which could be categorized as a "used in the manner (...) that would be bad in [your] opinion".

Yes, we end up losing players that may have come to enjoy AND break CR. But we also end up keeping players that may have come to enjoy AND follows CR.

I Don`t think we should ban anyone who wants to play and does so in a manner that isnt a holistic player ego-fest. My whole point is this could be allowed(NOT ENCOURAGED) without going to such drastic measures.... At least acknowledged and given better ways to incorporate it. Than the "bad" ways.

Simply banning those we catch doesnt stop this from actually happening, I think this is what everyone FAILS to realize. And legalization does not always = more addicts.


3 of us? I have a small army! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHA



j/k

If one player is enjoying themselves by taking unfair advantages over OOC communication, how many others will suffer and quit because of that? Games have rules so that everyone would have fun, not just those who have a wide circle of friends and big plans that just can't be filled without off-game instant messaging.

For what my opinion is worth CRB is wrong but CRB is happening constantly.

I would like to be able to discuss IC character things in the knowledge that people would treat this like a game and enjoy the game and the discussion. I recognise that the 4 day rule is there because some people are so retarded that they cannot keep a distinction between the game and themself. If my charracter kills your character it should make no difference to my relationship with you. It's a game! Given that people don't have the emotional stability to cope with free communication between players there are two other solutions present themselves:

A) Carry on with CRBs happening on the in the background and organisations and relationships IG based on previous CRBs allowed and a massive double standard where subtle CRB goes on between those in the know on lots of private networks

OR

B) Total lockdown. Forum closed, IRC closed, software routines that monitor and flag symbols like @ or .com or .co.uk or ASL and a whole list of other OOC terms, possibly even banning whispers. This would also likely involve a game restart to be totally effective. PD would have to be totally independant non-players. and probably RD, tailors and all them too.

Of course a lot of what I and others enjoy would be gone but the game would be pure. What annoys me the most is the double standard of those who are holier than thou, insisting in forum anonyimity, whilst themselves carefully watching others posts to identify other players and their characters and of course in their personal networks such information is shared and widely known.

Phalynx, you seem to have missed out option C - Where we drop the Capital rule totally - People can have as many accounts as they want, and use any infomation in game regardless of the source

This option should be included in any discussion as well as your other alternatives - personally I think option A is the one I prefer but then I would say that being part of the status quo.

Phalynx wrote:Given that people don't have the emotional stability to cope with free communication between players

Sorry I already eliminated Option C as you can see! Even though this is my preferred option!

I accidently voted "no." Of course it is, and should remain, a CRB.

Slightly different - your suggestion relays on people following the rule - Mine says just do away with it and allow people to use OOC in game

Mykey wrote:I believe Good OOC cooperation could be either dragging a criminal away or starting a coup.

Why can't you do that IC? Or any of your other examples?

Why is saying hey I need some help with dragging if your character is awake a bad thing?

Because Char A can walk from three towns away to meet up with Char B, never once communicate with them once but still help them drag the entire population of the town inside in less than five minutes?

Or, I don't know...let's say you both get together and put your chars in one town or even a mostly empty island and systematically kill off every char and newspawn that doesn't belong to either you or your friend, so you can completely rule the place without any challenges or disagreements?

And there's nothing keeping a group of pirates or bandits to talk in game and work out a time when they'll all be awake, signals for when to act, etc. Just look at the Barons.

And if it's minutes you're complaining about, yes, people with less chars have more time, but it's a trade off. If they have it so good and unfair why don't you do the same thing? Kill off about five or yours so you'll have more time to devote to the others...no one says you have to have 15.

As for making OOC cooperation okay, how about this scenario:

Player A: Hey I'm planning to overthrow the town, can you help me drag?
Player B: Uh...maybe. I'll think about it.
Player B to Player C: Hey, Player A is planning on taking over your town.
(Player C and B's chars preemptively drags Player B's char inside and kills them)
Player B: OMG CRB! I'm reporting you both!
Chars D, E, & F: Hey, what'd you kill that guy for?
Player B: OOC: he told me he was planning on taking over the town.
Chars D, E, & F: OOC: ok, LOL.

Even if a real situation wasn't quite so extreme, you get the picture. You could ask something like 'helping you drag' to another player, but this takes away a chance to roleplay. Why not ask their char to help you drag, without working it out over IM ahead of time so that you knowbefore you even ask what their reaction would be and whether it's safe to trust them at all? This goes back to the rule where OOC friends shouldn't have their chars cooperating too much, or why you shouldn't have your own chars cooperating, because you automatically know you can trust them and don't have to interact with anyone else.

But of course I can't believe I just had to type this whole thing out...my reaction to this was pretty much like wichitas.

And I see nothing wrong with marol telling you and people like you to go play a different game - because what you're asking for here wouldn't be Cantr anymore. And if that's the game you want to play, there are thousands of Muds an MMORPGs that don't have a CR, and don't even care if you RP. But there's only one Cantr, and those of us who like this sort of game shouldn't have it destroyed just because it's too slow-paced for some people.

[quote="Phalynx]PD would have to be totally independant non-players. and probably RD, tailors and all them too. [/quote]

You've said this before and it still doesn't make any sense. Staff are players who love the game so much they volunteer to spend their time trying to make it better. How do you expect people who've never played the game to even understand it, let alone be willing to waste their time running it for free? Or what, is it a requirement that people who are just as addicted to the game as any other player kill off all their chars before they join? Staff's already short-handed, but I'm sure that would bring in plenty more volunteers. Besides, if a person's not even allowed to play the game what would they care if it was fair, or even fun?

After reading Chris's suggestion, I have to say why not? Why not move a copy of the Cantr world to a different server (or however that works) and let the cheaters be free to cheat? That might keep them away from the real game, at least, even if eventually I'm sure they'd get sick of all the OOC chatter and having their chars killed off again and again and again (I get the feeling cheating is only fun for the people who aren't on the receiving end...)

Now that would be an interesting social experiment!

EDIT: I know money to keep it running would probably be an issue...but hey, didn't Mykey just say he'd be willing to pay? Since it's a given that no one playing on the copy is interested in being fair, give the regular 200 minutes for free and charge for the rest. (Or maybe it should just be 100 for free? Most of the discussion won't be happening while logged into the game anyway, so they won't really need as many minutes...)

If you could get the cheaters to pay for a server.

Im glad at least you understand my point, Brandon. And I affirm your perception. If this was in the suggestion forum it would read:

Please end the minute cap, I`ll pay!!!!! So Im not tempted to use messengers and can spend all the time I choose on my character!


But, Im sure that has been rejected before. All Im trying to do is bring a very real problem to light, that some people use, some abuse, and all are theoretiacally barred from doing. Even though there is no quickfix to stopping this, and it only seems to cost cantr experienced players......

Who says what a good player is and isn't? Truthfully, a good player -could- be considered one that follows the rules and doesn't need to resort to ooc discussions to get ahead in the game. A person who can create a character that is cool enough that chars IC always want to be awake and around that character.



You're saying some people, but you've failed to point them out. Who are they and where are they? We might not be able to point them out with-out someone reporting them. Of course I sit in IRC and I pick up on who talks to who and can most certainly guess who's behind closed doors talking about more than they should.



But here's something to think about.



Im not saying this happened but I somehow imagine that it did:

When it was just a Lego game played amongst Jos and his friends, I'm sure one of them would have the arrogant gull to say---"We should so make this. That would just make ____ mad." But I'm also sure they questioned themselves whether or not they were doing it to benefit themselves or their little lego people. I'm also sure if Jos said to one of his pals "You know you want to.." That they could differentiate amongst themselves when a person was doing it because they were influenced by their friend and when they weren't and they resolved it amongst themselves.

We're dealing with tons and tons of people playing this game, and it is supposed to reflect society. People in society are certainly persueded by other people that are in their world, but they are ~not~ influenced by people who are OUT of their world because there AREN'T people out of their world. We've already established that this is a game and because we are people behind the people in the cantr world that some ooc influence will be incorporated, but why maximize that influence?




The fun of the game for me is to see how well my characters can influence things and when something I attempt fails, having that character try to get out of that situation and if I've failed completely, trying a new tactic later. Looking at my characters life and questioning what that character did/didn't do right to make something work/make something fail and what I could do differently next time.

*giggles at the term "little lego people"* I want to go play with my old Legos now..

Nice post, Missy..

Sorry, not sure I should cross quote Seko here:

SekoETC wrote:
Then this ****ing CRB issue, who in their right mind could favor people plotting over other characters' heads in such ways that the others have no means of defending themselves? Would you like some **********ers dragging your well developped character into a building and killing him/her without a word being said, when all the discussion happens on the messenger. These people would have eyes both inside and outside, maybe on the roads as well, and no one could get away from them. These people wouldn't care about rp since all they care about is getting loads of iron and filling their megalomaniac projects of building something that could never be accomplished with ingame cooperation.

Here is the fear of the oldbie player so clearly expressed.. of course so paranoid because they've either done coordinated CRB, or seen it done themself. Lacking the self awareness that such OOC cooperation takes all the work and energy and days and months of dedication that they keep saying never happens in game anymore. That only really sad people would choose these measures - people who value all the iron and 'special things' who hang onto them even if they never use them... above progress in the game - oh yeah! other oldbie players!

Players who moan there are no empires and organisations and great empires, not thinking of how many worthy characters had to be sacrificed to get there, people who certainly wouldn't be sacrificing theirs. Not to mention all the CRBs

What I don't understand is how you don't get it! You are all subject to OOC influence by the way you play, favouring the older characters with their better equipment and good skill sets. Each character is there crying for your attention but they are all just little chess pieces. Sure you can role play and its great fantasy but when you let the characters move outside the boundaries of the game, when people flame each other for the behaviour of their characters or you cry when they do... well then things have gone a little too far and you have made it not a game!

And that's it in a nutshell to me, hence the sig. If you cheat thats like using cheat codes on computer games, there's no challenge. You play a game for the challenge and interaction and then remove it.. NO POINT but some cooperation to move things along.. maybe the game needs that more than a bunch of old farts whispering and trying to get other people to do their work for them!