Cantr II Discussion Forum

I know that sabotage of machines and creation of projects (almost) impossible to complete are CRB.

I have a question about a prisioner starting useless and unwanted furniture in a place where space is valuable (usually cabins on a ships). Just for vengeance (claimed by the prisioner) for consuming rather valuable resources, and weight and space in the cabin.

It is a CRB? Can I ask for a fix and refund?

Anyways, since furniture can't be moved nor dismantled nor destroyed yet, can I ask for the dismantling? (with or without the refund).

PS: most fo the the projects have all the resources needed, it is possible to finish them, but they are unwanted and immobable. And the prisioner, the initiator, does not have the tools, so they are 0% complete.

I reckon that is legitimate behaviour for a prisoner. What else is he going to do? Especially if he knows he's going to be killed. He's no other means of getting back at his captors.

I would think that this situation is no different than machine sabatoge, and you should be able to get the projects removed.

However, they don't take up any space until finished (I don't think), so maybe not, although I wouldn't want my cabin cluttered with unfinished projects.

Doug R. wrote:However, they don't take up any space until finished (I don't think), so maybe not, although I wouldn't want my cabin cluttered with unfinished projects.

They used to not, but now they do.

I am not PD, so my opinion doesn't really matter, but I think it is okay to start such projects (having all of the resources) as long as their number is not excessive. It will be interesting to hear how the PD members rule on this matter, as it will start a precedent, although one they are by no means required to follow in the future.

tiddy ogg wrote:I reckon that is legitimate behaviour for a prisoner. What else is he going to do? Especially if he knows he's going to be killed. He's no other means of getting back at his captors.

Maybe, but he is a prisoner and should not use a flaw in the game mechanics against his captors. He should act fairly within the confines of the game.

In RL, if a prisioner on a cell tells you "Hahaha! I started a deck, a bookcase, and a chest of drawers. Up yours! Muahaha"....
It has no sense. That is not a vengeance. It is ridiculous. You would take out that furniture, and if you are in need of the wood, you'd dismantle that furniture.

Except maybe in Cantr.

Talapus wrote:I think it is okay to start such projects (having all of the resources) as long as their number is not excessive. It will be interesting to hear how the PD members rule on this matter, as it will start a precedent, although one they are by no means required to follow in the future.

The ProgD has stated in the past that the fact that projects can't be canceled is a flaw, and therefore to sabotage in this way is an exploit, so I don't see how this is any different.

For several reasons. If they have all of the resources, it is less apparent that whatever they are building is not part of their plan to gain freedom. The only projects I have ever heard of being removed are those that unreasonably block machines, or those that are particularly offensive. Kwor was stuck with a project for a whorehouse for decades because the PD didn't think it was offensive enough. And these projects are not impossible to finish, and thus are of some actual value (although perhaps not as much as other projects that could have been started from those raw projects). I have heard of situations like this before, and as far as I know, the PD has never intervened (I remember one in particular where someone ended up with far more stone pots then they could ever use). As we have seen from the past, just because something is a bug doesn't mean that the PD will step in. And as I mentioned before, it will be interesting to see the decision that the PD makes.

I would argue that this is space sabotage, since space in a cabin is premium. There is no way that furniture can aid in escape (plus he said the prisoner doesn't have the tools). If it was a primitive smelting furnace, I would agree with you.

Anyway, ProgD has been known to act on these reports without any direction from PD, so it's really ultimately up to them whether it gets removed (but up to PD if the player gets punished for it).

Personally, I really wish people would just stop locking criminals in with all of their valuables.

Doug R. wrote:Personally, I really wish people would just stop locking criminals in with all of their valuables.

There is nothing stating that the resources used didn't belong to the prisoner, but in general I agree with you. If you lock someone in a room full of stuff (in Cantr or real life), you have to expect them to wreak havoc.

The projects (or the furniture when finished) occupy 8% of the weight capacity in the cabin (and substracting 0.25 speed), and have no purpose in there.

The resources were (in a dumb idea) handed to the vengeful prisoner for the 15 kg checking.
If 15 kg of wood can be destroyed or wasted by a prisoner in a cell (and even if not), I do think that wood is lost.

But what about the weight and space capacity?
3 strong men are ready to throw overboard all those useless pieces of junk. But it seems the junk is greased and nailed to the floor.

You can't compare with RL. There is practically no chance of the prisoner being able to tackle his captor, and if said captor leaves stuff lying around, why not make something with it. (As said, if you have to bring RL into it, he'd smash everything upp... and you'd call that sabotage? Maybe, but justified, and I don't see it's a flaw in the game mechanics if he can claim he is going to build all this stuff.
Caveat captor.

I had a char who was kidnapped and killed on a boat. She really wanted to start a bunch of wood projects just so the pirates could not benefit from her goods but I was also afraid that it would be considered a breach so I didn't do it.

I vote that it isn't a breach. Prisoners are so helpless. They should be able to do whatever is within their means. Including machine sabotage, IMO. If captors are stupid enough to lock someone up with a machine they should expect it to be destroyed.

In this instance, the fact that the jailers actually handed the wood to the prisoner is plenty good reason for them to suffer the consequences.

That character could perfectly waste that wood on tools and other removable objects. That would have achieved the same effect (forcing the captors to waste time to clean all the havoc), without exploiting an obvious flaw: you can't remove or destroy furniture in Cantr.

Clearing unwanted and unnecessary projects is a Programming Department Decision, not the Players Department. We deal with the player doing the sabatoging.

This again like the last question I answered goes on a case by case basis. In this particular case yes, the character sabatoged the room by starting projects that he could not finish not having the tools to do so. Whether the captor handed it to him or not, it is still considered sabatoge in this case. The projects clutter up the room and will affect the performance of the ship itself. Wood used on tools can be cleared out, furniture and machinery can not. Again, every incident is dealt with on a case by case basis and it is not always black and white. It depends on the circumstances involved.

Any more questions on this Sicofonte, please contact us via the department form or pm me in the forums.